why a cross-national relationship/marriage?

[bp]

A little while ago, Researcher posted a question:

http://www.planet-love.com/forum/index.php?topic=2483.0

Why are you considering a foreign woman for a wife? Most of the responses involved qualities of LWs (physical/intellectual/personality/etc.). I'd like to riff off of that and move the point of focus from the women to the relationship. What does a relationship/marriage with an LW have that doesn't necessarily exist (as much) in a relationship with an AW? For those not yet married or in a relationship, what are you hoping/expecting to find?

[beachcomber233]

I cannot speak for everyone, this is just me. I find LW the most beautiful in the world. Getting ready to embark on that journey, so if the difficulty out weighs the possible delight, I will post it.
gary

[bp]

I cannot speak for everyone, this is just me. I find LW the most beautiful in the world.

Right, but that's a quality of an LW, not a quality of the potential relationship. What about the relationship you expect/hope to find?

[Patrick]

What does a relationship/marriage with an LW have that doesn't necessarily exist (as much) in a relationship with an AW? For those not yet married or in a relationship, what are you hoping/expecting to find?

In my case, it was a more old-fashioned woman.  Someone who didn't have a feminist chip on her shoulder.  I got interested in Latin women after meeting and dating a Mexican woman I met in the US (near San Diego).  We dated for a few months and I got to know her and many of her friends and family.  I felt there was an obvious difference between the Latinas and the American women I had known.  I think they're much more comfortable being women than Americans are.  Ten years and one daughter later, I still think that's true.

Just to set the record straight, I don't think women are inferior to men.  I think in some ways they are superior just as men are superior to them in some ways.  Men and women may be equal in sum total, but they're not equivalent.  We seem to be trying to treat them as equivalent in our culture.

[Researcher]

What does a relationship/marriage with an LW have that doesn't necessarily exist (as much) in a relationship with an AW?

I would have to agree with Patrick.After spending alot of time in Mexico, I noticed the differences in the women there and here in the US.I don't have anything against the womens rights movement, I just think that alot of the women here are so focused on thier independence it is difficult for them to be a part of a couple. This comes from my own research. When I started looking in other countries for a relationship I didn't stop looking here in the US its just that I wanted to increase my options for finding a good relationship.So, as to your question: What does a relationship/marriage with a LW have that doesn't necessarily exist(as much) in a relationship with an AW?...A relationship with someone who isn't self absorbed....



 

[jm21-2]

I agree with researcher...talk with a typical American woman and she'll say how afraid she is of ever becoming dependent on a man in any way. IMHO, a relationship like that can't work. You have to be a bit interdependent...I want to be able to rely on a wife for certain things, and want to be able to provide certain things for her...I think that's how a good relationship works. It makes it more difficult to break off the relationship, which American women see as a bad thing, but I think is a good thing for the stability of a marriage (makes you think long and hard about calling it quits over some fairly minor problem). I also think if there's little or no division of labor in the household, and both have to learn all the household tasks, they are not as good at typical household tasks, and have less time to relax.

Now one of the things that REALLY galls me about AWs is that they think no matter how little money they make or how few hours they work, if they're working, the man should be doing half the household chores. That [snip] drives me nuts, they're absolutely bat-[snip] crazy if they think that's fair.

Now, if she wasn't working, and staying at home full time, that eliminates the problem of how much she makes or works....but what does a typical AW have to offer as a housewife? She can't cook, often isn't good at cleaning, doesn't know [snip] about interior decoration or gardening or anything related to being a housewife, and she's damn proud of it. AWs have been criticized for this even in the early 1900s, and they keep getting worse.

So, if she makes a little, or sits at home all day, I feel I'd be getting the short-end of the stick with the typical AW. Which leaves career women. .....   ............................................ like hell.

EDIT: to clarify a little...I've talked with women from other countries, both here and chatting with those abroad, and I've been impressed time and again at their views of what a husband and wife should be. I've met girls who want to be a housewife and think it's a very serious job. I've met professional girls who know how to cook, clean, are very feminine, and joyfully looking forward to being a mom. Talk with professional AWs and they don't know anything about housework and think they should get some sort of special reward (I've even heard some suggest monetary compensation from the government) for bearing children. Disgusting.

And no, I don't NEED a wife who can cook and clean because I don't know how. But I don't want to do those things after a long day at work, typically. I can cook Chinese, Thai, Mexican, and various American cuisines (yes, there are several distinct American cuisines, contrary to what some believe). But cooking for 2 hours after a 10 hour day doesn't appeal to me that much. I want to be able to sit back and relax and let my wife take over. Another member here mentioned his wife made him a real breakfast and lunch...amazing. A wife like that is, imho, worth her weight in gold...eating lunch or dinner out isn't that expensive, but a nice home-cooked meal made with love from the person you love most...that's invaluable. Jeff S says his wife always gives him a hug and a kiss when he gets home and spends time decorating the house...those sorts of little things mean a lot more to me than some mere monetary contribution she could make by working.

[el capitan]

Jeff S says his wife always gives him a hug and a kiss when he gets home and spends time decorating the house...those sorts of little things mean a lot more to me than some mere monetary contribution she could make by working.

You mean like making a house a home jm21-2?  I can agree with that.  June Cleaver was a very busy woman, but Ward seemed pretty happy! 

[Kiltboy1]

My wife is a CFO of a very large company in Ecuador and very very professional in every aspect, but she will not let me touch a dirty dish or make my own food. That is the job of "THE WIFE" as she puts it. Need I say more about why I found the holy grail ?

KB

[jm21-2]

You mean like making a house a home jm21-2?  I can agree with that.  June Cleaver was a very busy woman, but Ward seemed pretty happy! 

That's a much simpler way to say it  .

EDIT:
Also, thinking about it a little, a lot of AMs get a big kick out of being a provider/breadwinner. With an AW, they're often denied that role (due to the AW's need for independence) or are exploited by AWs who want a guy with a good job, but don't want to/can't contribute [snip] to the household in any way, or who are just plain using the guy for a free ride.

[Jeff S]

It seems to me that modern AW think that men and women are interchangeable. Modern feminism has driven home that it's perfectly acceptable for women to be combat soldiers and men to be house-husbands - for women to be the breadwinners and men to change diapers - so you get the idea that the division of labor should be 50/50. I changed the baby 17 times this week and you only 15, so it's your turn. The truth is that teams don't work that way. The quarterback doesn't do his turn as defensive end, and the center get his chance to run back punts. Teams work better when the members specialize - that's it's only real strength. Most Asian women, and I'd say a good percentage of Latinas get that men and women are opposite - equal but opposite - the yin and yang of things, while AW tend to view men as defective women. Listen to them whine to Dr. Laura. My wife cracks up at th ewomen who call in and can't believe that they spout such silliness.

[william3rd]

now wait a darn minute. I like Dr. Laura. Much better than the morning radio offering. Besides-she tells AW that they need to seduce their men and provide a supportive partnership and home life. . . .

[Jeff S]

Oh I like her too. It's some of those moronic callers we find so funny. I love how she tries to put them on the straight and narrow.

[Ray]

now wait a darn minute. I like Dr. Laura. Much better than the morning radio offering. Besides-she tells AM that they need to seduce their men and provide a supportive partnership and home life. . . .

Woa!

Are you sure? That sounds more like the Rosie O'donnell show...   

[william3rd]

Sorry, Ray- I must have been thinking of the SFO version of the show. . . .

[utopiacowboy]

"I agree with researcher...talk with a typical American woman and she'll say how afraid she is of ever becoming dependent on a man in any way."

That is true of some Latinas as well. My wife married her first husband at the age of 28 which is pretty late in life for a Colombiana. She wanted to focus on her career and she knew she would not be able to do that if she got married young. Good thing too. Her husband died when she was 40 and she had to rely on that career to support herself and her children.

For myself I don't want a woman who is a child herself. I want a partner who can hold up her end.

[jm21-2]

"I agree with researcher...talk with a typical American woman and she'll say how afraid she is of ever becoming dependent on a man in any way."

That is true of some Latinas as well. My wife married her first husband at the age of 28 which is pretty late in life for a Colombiana. She wanted to focus on her career and she knew she would not be able to do that if she got married young. Good thing too. Her husband died when she was 40 and she had to rely on that career to support herself and her children.

For myself I don't want a woman who is a child herself. I want a partner who can hold up her end.

There's a difference between being able to be independent, and not wanting to be dependent in any way. I think wanting to be completely independent in every way is, if anything, more childish. Part of being an adult is being able to trust in other people, rely on them, delegate responsibility, etc., imho.

[bp]

This thread has been pretty helpful to me. A big theme that I see coming up is "interdependence". I want to riff off of that and throw out a couple of questions:

1) What do you see as the pros and cons of a situation where the wife is the "breadwinner" and the husband takes care of the house?

2) Interdependence and specialization usually indicates that one spouse works outside the home, while the other takes care of the home. What about the benefits of a dual-income family (both spouses work, almost twice the income)? How do you see both spouses working hurting the family/household?

[blockbuster]

"I agree with researcher...talk with a typical American woman and she'll say how afraid she is of ever becoming dependent on a man in any way."

That is true of some Latinas as well. My wife married her first husband at the age of 28 which is pretty late in life for a Colombiana. She wanted to focus on her career and she knew she would not be able to do that if she got married young. Good thing too. Her husband died when she was 40 and she had to rely on that career to support herself and her children.

For myself I don't want a woman who is a child herself. I want a partner who can hold up her end.

 Ut,

 You brought out a very good point. Though I would want my daughter to trust a man, have a loving relationship with a man. Know how to cook, take care of the children ect. I also want to make sure she's independent financially. In  other words she can take care of herself and has good earning potential.  In a perfect world it's easy to think a woman will be well taken care of by her man, not cheated on and be given respect.

 But we all know this is a fantasy. Many men, even perfect husbands may stray at that can be the least of her worries. I want to raise a daughter who has choices. Not one who has to put up with whatever a man does and if he should leave her with kids her life is downgraded.

 The reason many men in Colombia are able to pull all kinds of [snip] on their women is few women have choices because they are financially dependent on a man so there will always be an abundance of financially needy woman and emotionally desperate women. This situation is great for the men,but I guarantee as a father you don't want to see your daughter having to settle for less than her worth and treated like crap on top of that.

[jm21-2]

1) What do you see as the pros and cons of a situation where the wife is the "breadwinner" and the husband takes care of the house?

Pros: It's easier. Life expectancy goes up. Get to spend a lot more time with the kids. Free to pursue hobbies and other intellectual activities that don't pay much (such as painting, writing, whatever). No stress from work.

Cons: I hate cleaning.

Really depends on the guy though. I know two guys who are "house hubbies," worked for one very well, not for the other at all. It depends on the woman's attitude towards the marriage as well. The same woman who would insist the husband help around the house if she's staying home may demand that the guy do ALL the work if he stays home. I think most women are not, and may never be, ready to be the sole breadwinner, and don't really know how to deal with their house hubbies. I've read a few articles written by husbands who were forced into the role of house hubby due to their wife's job, and it seems to be real hit and miss whether the couple adapts to it or not.

Well, it's the same as for women really. Some women want nothing more than to stay home and be a home-maker and get fulfillment out of it. Others would be bored out of their mind at home and want to go to work. I think on the whole though, there are far more men than women who do well as primary breadwinner, probably due to the hormonal differences that affect the way we think. Perhaps those hormonal and biological differences are amplified by cultural constructs, but I think it's ludicrous to suggest they don't exist at all. And many of the glorified exceptions (the masculine woman or the feminine man) may actually be transgender. But of course gender studies are in their infancy and those who conduct the research often have a result in mind before beginning...to the point of being blatantly fraudulent...anyways...

2) Interdependence and specialization usually indicates that one spouse works outside the home, while the other takes care of the home. What about the benefits of a dual-income family (both spouses work, almost twice the income)? How do you see both spouses working hurting the family/household?

You can have specialization in a dual-income family...why not? So what if you both work? One person can cook/clean, the other can do the yard work, take out the garbage, keep the cars in shape...one person can do little touches to decorate the home, while the other paints, lays tile, etc...

Two-income households aren't always equal. I'm not sure I actually know of an equal-income household...and then logically you would want to limit yourself to someone who makes the same as you or more, which drastically limits your options, especially if you're a man with a good job. And almost all women want a man who earns more than them anyways.

And it seems you're also assuming both parents not only earn an equal amount, but both contribute an equal amount to the household, and the budget is jointly planned with equal benefits for both spouses. I would say a household like that would be the extremely rare exception rather than the norm for two-income households.

Problems? As we've seen in America, one of the main problems of the dual income household is vastly increased prices for certain "family" items, particularly housing. Lenders will get the vast majority of people to borrow as much as they possibly can for a house (actually, usually a little more because they want a percentage of people to default), and when there are two incomes, there's twice the fun for them. And because this drives the average price up, more households have to become two-income to compete, which causes more inflation, and single people get more and more screwed...

And if there are childcare expenses, the cash benefit of the other spouse working might be insignificant or actually be negative, depending on their income.

Then you get the families trying to set up their schedule so one parent can be there with the kids at all time, but then they don't have as much time with their spouse and the marriage quickly turns sour as they get out of sync.

If there were more options available to parents, it might be a more viable option...for example, a charter school that ran from 8-5, or more flexible schedules for parents, or more part-time jobs for parents...partial or full telecommuting...we've got a long ways to go though.

This situation is great for the men,but I guarantee as a father you don't want to see your daughter having to settle for less than her worth and treated like crap on top of that.

Who said anything about raising daughters? I thought we were talking about finding wives here. 

[blockbuster]

 Basically,

 I think a guy gets the best of both world by being with a woman who is attractive,loving, yet intelligent with a great career. You know then she doesn't need anything from you other then love. Kiltboy and Utopia are 2 guys who found a perfect blend in one woman.

 

[bp]

Problems? As we've seen in America, one of the main problems of the dual income household is vastly increased prices for certain "family" items, particularly housing.

If there were more options available to parents, it might be a more viable option...

jm, you present a very interesting damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario, at least when kids are involved. If both parents work, it creates problems with what to do with the kids. However, if only one parent works, the family might not have enough income to take care of itself. Of course, this isn't a problem isolated to cross-national marriages, but American families in general. Do you see a cross-national marriage as a (partial) solution to this? If so, how?

I think a guy gets the best of both world by being with a woman who is attractive,loving, yet intelligent with a great career.

How does this work for foreign women if they move to the US? Are their career options stunted because they have a foreign degree vs. an "American" one?

There's a difference between being able to be independent, and not wanting to be dependent in any way. I think wanting to be completely independent in every way is, if anything, more childish. Part of being an adult is being able to trust in other people, rely on them, delegate responsibility, etc., imho.

How is/would/could/should a wife be dependent on her husband? How do you expect to be dependent on your wife?

[catz]

To answer the topic title:

As I had been involved with women of several nationalities before I decided to go off the continent my main question was "Why not?"

Add to that the comparison (favorable) of my foreign born lady friends compared to (not as favorable but not horrible for the most part) for my locally born lady friends and it just seemed the natural thing to do.

FWIW

[jm21-2]

jm, you present a very interesting damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario, at least when kids are involved. If both parents work, it creates problems with what to do with the kids. However, if only one parent works, the family might not have enough income to take care of itself. Of course, this isn't a problem isolated to cross-national marriages, but American families in general. Do you see a cross-national marriage as a (partial) solution to this? If so, how?

No, I don't see it as a solution to that particular problem.

How is/would/could/should a wife be dependent on her husband? How do you expect to be dependent on your wife?

The same way most traditional families work? The husband brings home the bacon and figures out the finances, the wife takes care of the home and children and provides support. Both partners depend on each other for companionship and love. That's what I'd want for myself. I'm sure others want different things.

[jm21-2]

Here's an example of the things that drive a guy to the idea of an international relationship...conversation I had with my mom while visiting my parents, as they nagged me about marrying and producing some grand-kids. Obviously the precise language isn't the same, but anyways...

Me: I'm not going to marry a girl who works less hours and makes less money, but wants to split up household finances and chores 50/50.
Mom: women make less than men, and you're much more educated than the vast majority of girls, so you should get used to dating someone who has less education and lower pay.
Me: girls get paid less because they tend to take jobs that are less stressful or have less hours. Like you're a teacher...
Mom: Everyone who works, no matter what they earn or what job they do, comes home tired. It's fair to split the chores 50/50.
Me: We have a market economy, jobs that pay more generally do so for a reason. They're higher stress, harder, and usually have longer hours. Both people might be tired, but one is more tired usually.
Mom: to have a successful marriage, you need to pool the marital income and make decisions jointly
Me: if my wife makes far less than me and wants to control 50% of our joint income, i'd laugh in her face
Mom: you better not get married then
Me: i'd rather marry a girl who's fine with staying at home and being a house-wife, so i don't have to worry about the splitting of incomes or chores
Mom: your aunt _____ was a house-wife, but she made your uncle iron his own clothes, cook, and do other chores too.
Me: (speechless and slackjawed for a bit). Well, i guess go for a foreign girl then
Mom: oh, a mail-order bride? (slight tinge of disgust and disbelief)
Me: there's no such thing, you have to meet them in person and they get interviewed by a consular officer to make sure there's a real relationship there.
Mom: well, i know a girl who married a chinese guy and he was just using her to get a green card
Me: well, if i was an american girl, i'd be skeptical of a foreign guy wanting to marry me, american girls don't have a great reputation abroad.
Dad (under his breath as he's working on something): they don't have a good reputation here...(surprised he didn't get hit for that one, hahaha).

Conversation trailed off after that as something came up, but it's bizarre to have your own mother suggest you should expect a marriage to be patently unfair to the guy. For the record, my mom is a teacher and works about 6-7 hours a day. My dad works about 8-10 hours a day as a director of several government programs. He comes home from work and cooks dinner every night (he's a very good cook, better than the vast majority of restaurants), and usually cleans a bit. My mom complains because he doesn't wash the dishes.

[william3rd]

Amazing- no respect for teachers.  They work a heck of a lot more than 7 hours a day and they aren't paid enough for what they do while government hacks are grossly overpaid considering the contribution that they make to society.

I do have to ask- what are you going to do with a wife that makes less money? Ration her meals? Restrict her use of toilet paper? Go on vacations without her? Have her sign a restrictive prenup?

Hey- how are you going to divvie up the cost of tampons since you aren't using them?

I really don't understand your last two posts at all. Could you be more clear as to what you are thinking about as to your views towards the institution of marriage?