Petitions for money inappropriate?

[fathertime]

 Soletro, Soletero & Kittleboy!

 

[bigstew33]

well I just took the time to read the whole thread.  I read it quickly, but I have the gist.  What I don't understand is this, MA has said it a couple ways in the way the money was attempted at.  Did she try to con you, or did she inappropriately ask you for it.  I think maybe some more detail is needed.  What you think is inappropriate may not be the views of others.  If she just asked you for it doesn't make it inappropriate.  You said you have been in a relationship for 4 years.  Some guys are very stingy and just a mere asking may seem inappropriate to them.  Now if she went way out with some plan to con you then I would be surprised her first con was attempted after 4 years.  I would say a bad character flaw is there 365 days a year.  I am sure at some point this would have come up long ago.  SO more detail is needed.  Yes there are women that try to get you to give them money very early in the relationship.  I have been there done that.  Learning my lesson.  I just had a girl ask me the other day for money.  I had only been chatting on the internet for about week.  needless to say I just said goodbye and that was it.  I understand that feeling as a man you want to provide for a woman, but there is a time limit on where that starts in the relationship.  Usually longer than a week   4 years and she asked you for money would have so much of a different meaning.  Maybe she sees you as a provider, and because she asked you for more than what you are giving her may not be inappropriate.  Just a tightwad that is shocked someone would ask you for anything more than you are giving.  Again I say more specifics are needed.  But the consensus of the board I agree with. 

[Kiltboy1]

Not to me
A woman that I hardly even know , hitting me up for gifts, money, that is the same to me as if you robbed a bank. Both are wrong. If guys out there like that kind of woman, more power to them. Me, I would absolutely stop talking to a woman if she hit me up for money. I do not put up with the BS from women. I did in the past and learned  from those mistakes. I expect a woman to be straight up with me and if she gets a gift, it is because she deserves it, not because she asks for it.

[David]

David got beaten up over stating a simple truth. Biologically the sole reason for any organism to exist is to reproduce. Differentiating humans from other animals is just some type of arrogance as that is what we are regardless of higher brain function. I wouldn't have gone there personally the way he did because it didn't strengthen his argument, but what he said was simplistically true.

Thank you! Yes! Finally someone understands! Good God, I was about to give up hope.

My premise is that if your situation is bad enough, you'll do anything to survive, and that weak character has nothing to do with that. You can't simply talk about the fancies of society without taking it to the extreme, life and death. Some people you may be speaking with may be on the verge of life and death, and that is why they ask for money, for help. They don't have weak characters, they are just stuck in a horrible situation and need help. And what kind of honor (this is for you Ray) do you have by NOT helping them out? Let me guess, the thought process is something like this: "NO! I don't want to! Its my money, all mine! Screw them!" How selfish do need to be??? My god!

Hmmm...I don't feel the conclusion is necessarily true.  Some people are just more bleeding heart, far left thinkers.  Some people have way too much faith in all of mankind and feel that everyone can be saved.  IMO those thoughts are not realistic.

 

I'm not necessarily a bleeding heart, and I don't have a lot of faith in mankind. The world's always been falling apart, when was the last time it wasn't? But to NOT help because you think people are just trying to screw you is selfish. Who here was born a jerk and a person of weak character? No one, its the challenges in life that turn you into what you are, and how you react to those. What if you had a great character, but lived in a horrible environment, wouldn't you take a hit and ask for money just to get to a better existence? (Don't answer Ray, for you its a rhetorical question).

David, I can see where you are coming from, except for that point about killing my relatives to end their pain. What has that got to do with the argument about doing anything necessary to save your life so you can reproduce, or turning to crime because you were poor and hungry? Nothing!

Of course I would protect myself from harm. But I would not justify harming other innocents just to save my myself. A dumb animal will fight and kill for the right to reproduce. A dumb animal will kill another’s offspring to promote the domination of it’s own genes over those of another. Dumb animals will kill each other over a scrap of food when they are hungry. Is that what you really want, a world where animal instincts dictate and justify your behavior? Sounds like total anarchy to me...

My argument about killing a relative was an example of gray areas in life. You kill your relative to ease their pain, but its immorally the wrong decision. Thoughts?

As for your "dumb animal" comment. Here's a specific example: In the last two millenia, in the middle east, there were highly structured and organized governments/dictatorships. These Kings had harems where the wives of the Kings would sometimes "kill" their rivaling offspring so their own would ascend into power. I think we're just as dumb as all the other species Ray.

Forget all of that other crap for a moment. The whole point of this discussion was whether or not you should accept a person of weak character for a spouse because perhaps she would change some day. I say no! What do you say?

I say yes! Weak character can be affected by a weak environment. Its a gray issue. It is not always cut and dry, and sometimes it is. I think it depends on the woman. Asking for help in a tight situation when you know the person is justified, and you should trust that person. Not knowing them, and wanting to be a generous soul, a man with honor who helps others, is a kindly act. However, they would not be marriage material. This is the reason I dumped my Bogota woman.

My personal belief is that if you make the decision to survive or reproduce instead of doing the morally correct thing (and morality is a lot more constant between time periods and cultures than some would have you think...), you are tossing away your humanity. You are giving up the one thing that makes you human. So what does that make you? An animal that can suffer from depression and all sorts of mental illnesses? An animal ridden with guilt? No thanks.

Wrong. Morality is fluid. Death is not. You can't have morality when you're dead, or for example the entire human population is dead. Morality is only alive in the eyes of those who survive. Its the icing on the cake that helps govern our groups or societies. There are many things that make us human, I would agree that morality is one of them, but it is not the end all constant. Some would agrue that our higher brain power to plant and irrigate crops defines our humanity because we can control our food source. Animals pretty much can't do that. So there are certain causalities that make us human, but there are just the same amount that make us animal. You could even agrue that suicide gives us our humanity too. There is no other animal on the planet that will voluntarily conciously chooses to end its existence.

And if all you're interested in is survival and reproduction, why bother with marriage? It's obviously not the best way to accomplish those things. The same goes for a girl who is just interested in that...talk about horrible wife material.

Yes, its called a sperm bank. Thankfully I am more interested in quality than quantity; however, I am at odds inside myself because I know just as Soltero said that the sole reason is to reproduce. Do I reproduce in mass quantities and perhaps they all fail (eventhough the odds would be against not even one surviving) or do I groom my offspring to have the survival tactics of this planet for longevity eventhough they could also be destroyed in an instant? Tough questions....

[Calipro]

Not to me
A woman that I hardly even know , hitting me up for gifts, money, that is the same to me as if you robbed a bank. Both are wrong. If guys out there like that kind of woman, more power to them. Me, I would absolutely stop talking to a woman if she hit me up for money. I do not put up with the BS from women. I did in the past and learned  from those mistakes. I expect a woman to be straight up with me and if she gets a gift, it is because she deserves it, not because she asks for it.

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

I would consider giving money to a woman if she was my mother, my sister, my wife or even my lover. I don't think I would ever consider passing the bucks to an internet friend even if we did have cyber sex. hehehe !!!

Even in Colombia asking for a handout is not without some sort of embarrassment. So you should ask yourself one question "why is she asking you?.

Are you the only one she knows that has any money? Or are you the person she is least concerned about what you think of her?

When she is your wife or lover then you should consider helping her out. So if she is dying of starvation, I suggest you get on a plane right away.

[markanthony7]

Big Stew answer , it was about 2 years or so after the relationship had begun and she phrased her request in the form of a family need for groceries, she stated that she needed it in advance, I don't think she needed it as much as she implied she did, I mean her family was not next to staring I know, retrospectively , she may have just wanted to ask me for money but did not know how, she never really asked me for money before, perhaps she felt she had to legitimize the need or request by placing it in a conduit of a desperate need but all she had to do was ask because we were in a relationship for sometime and I would not have characterized her as a goldigger if she would have just asked me, but this is just subjective thinking on my part but she probably did not understand that just asking was suffice and she had to present a legitimate need to justify her request for support, (example if we want a day off from work, sometimes we just cant say I want the day off, we have to say I have a doctors appointment, friends wedding, sons baseball game etc; so thinking back she probably did not realize that just asking was a legitmate reason enough and I would have perceived her as a selfish woman for just asking for money without some dire need to motivate the request

2. Soletro , I have to call you out again on your statement that in your adult life you are finished with making mistakes, you have no short comings and failures, and defences in your character and personality like these women and me, thats rediculious!!!! remember even Mark Anthony has one fault but IMO this is why you and everyone are judgmental in my opinion because you cant see that you have faults make failures and mistakes like other people you and Ray take a perfect pill everyday there is parable about the publican and a Pharisee (preachier) that is applicable to this situation, " the publican knew he was immoral and had faults but the religious pharisee the thought he was morally perfect and without error and looked condescendingly on other people and IMO this is why I see pretentiousness and self righteousness

[markanthony7]

Caprilo , the question is not about if its right or wrong for a young lady to make an inappropriate request for money, we all unilaterally agree its unethical, the question is should necessarily be a deal breaker, behind her idiotic conduct or misconduct could she possibly be a genuine person with good qualities for a lasting relationship? or is this a red flag and an indication to immediately terminate the relationship? can communication resolve this issue? or is this a definitive indication of a serious character flaw in her that is irreparable?, my logic and experience dictates to me confront her with her indiscretion first and depending on how she responds dictates the matter of resolution or abolishment of the relationship

[soltero]

2. Soletro , I have to call you out again on your statement that in your adult life you are finished with making mistakes, you have no short comings and failures, and defences in your character and personality like these women and me, thats rediculious!!!! remember even Mark Anthony has one fault but IMO this is why you and everyone are judgmental in my opinion because you cant see that you have faults make failures and mistakes like other people you and Ray take a perfect pill everyday there is parable about the publican and a Pharisee (preachier) that is applicable to this situation, " the publican knew he was immoral and had faults but the religious pharisee the thought he was morally perfect and without error and looked condescendingly on other people and IMO this is why I see pretentiousness and self righteousness

Mark, you have shown yourself to be exactly what I would expect a minister to be. I have not judged anyone. I have spoken to character. If there was any sense to what I said, I would expect a thinking person to acknowledge it, or if not, offer a rebuttal. I have no use whatsoever for morals, so I don't understand how anything I have said applies to your quite hilarious righteous indignation here.

Do you have a life of your own that you can reference? Surely you have stories of your own without continuously falling back on your book.

If your argument is falling apart, it may be best to revisit your position. Attacking the opposition instead of the point is equal to the last blustering before checkmate in a discussion. I have said repeatedly that if a person chooses to deal with whatever, then that is their choice. Please do not presume to know me nor figure you can choose for me.

Have the decency to stop running in circles on this before you begin to look foolish. I have already given this discussion more time than it deserved out of respect for your continuing to keep it going. That is one more mistake I have learned from, and do not care to continue.

[Calipro]

Caprilo , the question is not about if its right or wrong for a young lady to make an inappropriate request for money, we all unilaterally agree its unethical, the question is should necessarily be a deal breaker, behind her idiotic conduct or misconduct could she possibly be a genuine person with good qualities for a lasting relationship? or is this a red flag and an indication to immediately terminate the relationship? can communication resolve this issue? or is this a definitive indication of a serious character flaw in her that is irreparable?, my logic and experience dictates to me confront her with her indiscretion first and depending on how she responds dictates the matter of resolution or abolishment of the relationship

I don't think it is unethical to ask for money. I just think that it shows a lack of sincere interest in you and your relationship even if it is only a cyber friendship. hehehe !!

I wouldn't immediately terminate the relationship if she was a good sport about my emphatic "no" to her request for money.

Who knows...maybe to know you is to love you and after she has had the opportunity to spend quality time with you, she will respect you and your relationship more;-)

[bigstew33]

I don't get it then.  2 years into the relationship, surely at that point it's more than a casual relationship.  If it is casual (booty call girl) then yes maybe it was out of bounds to ask.  But if she asked you after that amount of time and the relationship is serious then I don't see a problem with her asking you to help.  My god after that amount of time wouldn't be any hesitation for me.  But 4 years later you haven't married her?  What is that about?  Since you bring up Christianity all the time, is it appropriate to have sexual relations with a woman out of wedlock?  Just knowing next to nothing of your relationship and why 4 years later you are not married brings to my mind weather it's a booty call relationship or not. 

[jm21-2]

Wrong. Morality is fluid. Death is not. You can't have morality when you're dead, or for example the entire human population is dead. Morality is only alive in the eyes of those who survive. Its the icing on the cake that helps govern our groups or societies. There are many things that make us human, I would agree that morality is one of them, but it is not the end all constant. Some would agrue that our higher brain power to plant and irrigate crops defines our humanity because we can control our food source. Animals pretty much can't do that. So there are certain causalities that make us human, but there are just the same amount that make us animal. You could even agrue that suicide gives us our humanity too. There is no other animal on the planet that will voluntarily conciously chooses to end its existence.

Bull[snip]. If you study different times and different cultures, you will find that very few things have changed as far as morality goes, even in cultures completely unrelated to each other. There was a major study done on this a while back, but I forget the name and author.

To take your example, planting and irrigating crops is merely a benefit of having morality. Would someone spend all that effort irrigating wasteland if they thought someone would take it over? Would you spend a season tending crops when you thought someone would steal the product when you were done? It would be absolutely impossible to have any sort of civilization without human morality. What's the point of running a store if no one respects contracts? How can you have a nation if no one is willing to risk their life to defend it?

Again using your example, suicide, it shows how we are different from animals, and that that difference is from morality. People commit suicide because they feel depressed, sad, guilty....why would humans have these emotions if our only purpose was to reproduce and survive? They only hinder those two things.They're there to encourage moral decision-making.

Next you'll be arguing that gender is a fluid concept...

[EbonyPrince]

2 Funny FT .

I don't think it is unethical to ask for money.

I don't think that asking for money is immoral or unethical, but trying to con someone out of their money is unethical in my opinion.

I don't get it then.  2 years into the relationship, surely at that point it's more than a casual relationship.  If it is casual (booty call girl) then yes maybe it was out of bounds to ask.  But if she asked you after that amount of time and the relationship is serious then I don't see a problem with her asking you to help.  My god after that amount of time wouldn't be any hesitation for me.  But 4 years later you haven't married her?  What is that about?  Since you bring up Christianity all the time, is it appropriate to have sexual relations with a woman out of wedlock?  Just knowing next to nothing of your relationship and why 4 years later you are not married brings to my mind weather it's a booty call relationship or not.

I agree.  As I said in a previous post, you have to decide what it is and is going to be amongst you and her.  If it is just that, I feel that it is also unethical to not make her aware of that.

I don't profess to be a saint unlike you Mark.  Logically speaking we all have faults, and I think I have repeated here that I do.  I have also mentioned wanting to correct those where ever I see necessary.  I think that you are the one being judgemental, and you refuse to listen to and digest anything that anyone says to you.  My perception is that you are going to believe what you want to believe and no one can change your mindset.

Bull[snip]. If you study different times and different cultures, you will find that very few things have changed as far as morality goes, even in cultures completely unrelated to each other. There was a major study done on this a while back, but I forget the name and author.

To take your example, planting and irrigating crops is merely a benefit of having morality. Would someone spend all that effort irrigating wasteland if they thought someone would take it over? Would you spend a season tending crops when you thought someone would steal the product when you were done? It would be absolutely impossible to have any sort of civilization without human morality. What's the point of running a store if no one respects contracts? How can you have a nation if no one is willing to risk their life to defend it?

Again using your example, suicide, it shows how we are different from animals, and that that difference is from morality. People commit suicide because they feel depressed, sad, guilty....why would humans have these emotions if our only purpose was to reproduce and survive? They only hinder those two things.They're there to encourage moral decision-making.

Excellent rebuttal JM.  I understand what Dave is trying to say, but as humans our behaviour cannot always be explained.  He has valid and true points, but you and Ray also have valid points tambien.  We are where we are as humans because we are able to think and rationalize.  Would I give my life to save my children?  Most definately.  Would I give my life to save another man I do not know?  Consciously no.  But as a human I would try to save another man's life if they are in need without giving thought to if there is going to be a fatal outcome for me.  I think most unselfish and non-hateful humans would. 

[jm21-2]

David, just to elaborate, as an example of a culture/society which accepted the notion that morality was fluid, you can look to the Nazis. When confronted with whether Hitler's actions were acceptable, people just said "oh, well, morality is fluid, it's really just what society says is correct at the time, so killing the jews and other unwanteds in droves is no big deal."

I just thought I'd give that example to show you how dangerous thoughts like that can be. It's easy to have lax views on morality in a country like the US, where we tend to take basic morality and safety for granted, but let your guard drop too low and...

[michaelb]

My perception is that you are going to believe what you want to believe and no one can change your mindset.

Didn't I already say that, about 100 messages ago?

[markanthony7]

Ebony Prince I dis agree with your deduction that I am not listening to any of you, , I am listening, I admit on some of the issues I may have been to passive about, this thread has challenged me to reconsider some of my values and perspectives I used to hold too. I explained in an earlier thread, I just don't agree with everything that is said and thats the perfect balance, I was to loose before and your dogmatism has tightened me up a little and I would like to think that I illuminated some things to others as I have gained an education from everybody sharing on this subject matter but I honestly belief forum members are misconstruing the argument I am presenting, altough I have reiterated otherwise on numerous occasions everyone seems to feel I am ratifying bad character or misconduct, I am simply saying that after ab act of discretion or this sort of transgression has been committed, it does not necessarily signal the end of a relationship, it depends on how extensive the issue is and how the young lady responds

[markanthony7]

Bigstew thats the whole point I made to her after 2 years of seeing each other there is no need for you to create an exaggerated or lying story to get money out of me , just simply ask, you don't have explain about your poverty I all ready see it but as I said earlier it may have been motivated by fear and insecurity

[Kiltboy1]

I gotta go with Calipro on this one, This thread has gone on way too long. Bottom line is that asking for money and gifts from someone you do not have a relationship or have not had a sexual relationship with is just wrong, end of story!! I see people on the streets all day long asking for money and i do not give them any because it is a racket, scamo, comprende, no differente then a woman asking for dough. You will never convince me that being poor is a reason for asking for money because Ecuador is a way more poor country then Colombia and what they have is pride and you just do not get women asking for money. This thread needs to be put to sleep really as it is common sence to not give a chica $$ if she is not someone you are involved with. If you want to give charity, start a mission !

KB--Not stupid like most i read about !! but used to be

[Ray]

My premise is that if your situation is bad enough, you'll do anything to survive, and that weak character has nothing to do with that. They don't have weak characters, they are just stuck in a horrible situation and need help.

 
Again David, your premise is fundamentally flawed because you keep trying to state as fact that ANYONE would stoop to the level of a common criminal if their situation were dire enough. But, ONCE AGAIN, you should say “I (David) will do anything to survive”, instead of  “you will do anything to survive”. Speak for yourself David. And YES, that shows weak character IMO. If you had any character or honor you would find another way than trying to cheat and steal from another.

And what kind of honor (this is for you Ray) do you have by NOT helping them out? Let me guess, the thought process is something like this: "NO! I don't want to! Its my money, all mine! Screw them!" How selfish do need to be??? My god!

You can dispense with the drama queen act David. Did I ever say “screw them”?? No, YOU just made that up of course. On the contrary, it’s your selfish attitude of ‘I will do whatever I have to to save my own ass” that should be condemned.

But to NOT help because you think people are just trying to screw you is selfish.

David, you nearly broke the meter with that one. Sheesh!   

What if you had a great character, but lived in a horrible environment, wouldn't you take a hit and ask for money just to get to a better existence? (Don't answer Ray, for you its a rhetorical question).

WARNING for David: Don’t read this answer if you can’t handle the truth!

No, I wouldn’t.

My argument about killing a relative was an example of gray areas in life. You kill your relative to ease their pain, but its immorally the wrong decision. Thoughts?

Irrelevant to this discussion, but you can start another thread if you really want to discuss euthanasia or such.

As for your "dumb animal" comment. Here's a specific example: In the last two millenia, in the middle east, there were highly structured and organized governments/dictatorships. These Kings had harems where the wives of the Kings would sometimes "kill" their rivaling offspring so their own would ascend into power. I think we're just as dumb as all the other species Ray.

So, what’s your point David? I certainly am aware that “some” members of the species have acted no better than animals. But trying to justify animal-like behavior based on some historical examples is just plain silly. See jm’s Hitler example…

If you act no better than an animal, then be prepared to be treated like one. I’m sure we can find a nice cage for you… 

I say yes! Weak character can be affected by a weak environment. Its a gray issue. It is not always cut and dry, and sometimes it is. I think it depends on the woman. Asking for help in a tight situation when you know the person is justified, and you should trust that person. Not knowing them, and wanting to be a generous soul, a man with honor who helps others, is a kindly act. However, they would not be marriage material. This is the reason I dumped my Bogota woman.

If you believe that they would not be marriage material, then we both agree on the main point of this thread. 

[Kiltboy1]

MA

You got me confused with someone else. I am married to a great woman from Ecuador and she has never asked me for one dime, so I am not sure who you are refering to. In the past I have been hit up for $$ just like most guys here on this site. I learned real quick when to close the ATM down and I have a sixth sence about when a woman is going to try to hit me up for money and I quickly cut her frigen head off before she can spit those words out. But as I said, I am very happily married to women who respects me too much to ask for money.

KB

[David]

Batter Up!

Bull[snip]. If you study different times and different cultures, you will find that very few things have changed as far as morality goes, even in cultures completely unrelated to each other. There was a major study done on this a while back, but I forget the name and author.

To take your example, planting and irrigating crops is merely a benefit of having morality. Would someone spend all that effort irrigating wasteland if they thought someone would take it over? Would you spend a season tending crops when you thought someone would steal the product when you were done? It would be absolutely impossible to have any sort of civilization without human morality. What's the point of running a store if no one respects contracts? How can you have a nation if no one is willing to risk their life to defend it?

Again using your example, suicide, it shows how we are different from animals, and that that difference is from morality. People commit suicide because they feel depressed, sad, guilty....why would humans have these emotions if our only purpose was to reproduce and survive? They only hinder those two things.They're there to encourage moral decision-making.

Next you'll be arguing that gender is a fluid concept...

First of all, we can begin to get real technical here and start quoting authors and surveys, etc. But I think we should just stick to paraphrasing history for the condensed version of these arguments/discussions. Agree?

So let me get this straight. Planting and irrigating crops is only from morality? So nevermind about the "trying to survive and live part" huh? Some would spend all that time just to live! Nevermind a barter or currency traded society. We planted crops to live. Example: Summarians, Assyrians, etc. If someone was to steal the product, punish or catch the perpatrator, dispensing justice would be determined by the individual, not the society. It is only when people live together does moraliy come into existence. Morality is simply a guideline set down by the majority of a community living together. One farmer by themselves (as in a hermit, or simply far away from other humans) planting crops can decide whatever punishment he likes when an outside intruder intervenes. There were no laws, no police officers, no one to hold an individual to a higher modality of conduct set forth my morality. I agree, no society would exist without morality. But how that group of people decides on what is moral and immoral is FLUID!

Sidenote: Gender is fluid. Example: Frogs that grow the opposite sex genetalia to reproduce. Even in out society, people can have sex-operations. There's also asexual reproduction. A little different notion, but I would still say "fluid."

Emotions has nothing to do with surviving or reproducing. Instinct does. The unbridaled urge to reproduce is what drives species forward. I can't answer your question as to why humans have emotions, but I would believe it has to do with our perceptions of our interactions in the environment around us, and our higher brain funtions. You think that emotions are in humans to encourage good moral decision making? Where do you get this stuff JM? Try not to include God, or some religious exert in your response, because I feel it coming on, and I don't think there is too much room for religion in this thread.

David, just to elaborate, as an example of a culture/society which accepted the notion that morality was fluid, you can look to the Nazis. When confronted with whether Hitler's actions were acceptable, people just said "oh, well, morality is fluid, it's really just what society says is correct at the time, so killing the jews and other unwanteds in droves is no big deal."

I just thought I'd give that example to show you how dangerous thoughts like that can be. It's easy to have lax views on morality in a country like the US, where we tend to take basic morality and safety for granted, but let your guard drop too low and...

The German's in 1920's and 30's were in a horrific depression, mainlly caused by world war 1, and the accords placed on them from the signing at Versaille. As a result, the building tension left a vaccum for healing. When Hilter rose as a figure with an answer (blame the Jews) people found an outlet for their pain from the economic depression. Unfortunately it was hatred and realising that tension and pain upon the Jews. So in essence, morality shifted. It became "ok" in the German publics view to kill Jews. Obviously the rest of the world, whose morality was different, was still moderately balanced about the deaths of fellow human beings. So yes, morality is fluid.

Yes, these thoughts are dangerous, and the chief fact that makes them dangerous is our fear that there is nothing to keep us in check. If the majority of people come to together and decide to burn books, then it becomes the norm of that society.

Yes, I agree, it is easily to have lax views on this in our country, which makes my point that in other countries its more difficult to live and survive, which then a person's own morality could become fluid to survive. Condemned by everyone else, but still alive. Example: Look what happened to Col. Oliver North. Condemned for selling weapons to the Contras in the 1980's only to return as a journalist/war correspondent in contemporary times. The publics morality on his actions has been condoned and now he is welcomed back into society. Should he have just killed himself and died with honor as Ray would like? No, because he can withdrawl, come back, and live to fight and die another day.

Ray:

That B.S. meter is hilarious! I love it  . You must keep it around to check out how your answers stack up in life.

Again David, your premise is fundamentally flawed because you keep trying to state as fact that ANYONE would stoop to the level of a common criminal if their situation were dire enough. But, ONCE AGAIN, you should say “I (David) will do anything to survive”, instead of  â€œyou will do anything to survive”. Speak for yourself David. And YES, that shows weak character IMO. If you had any character or honor you would find another way than trying to cheat and steal from another.

I can indulge you with "what if" situations where you would HAVE to pick the immoral/unethical choice to live, and chose the moral one for death. But it seems you are content to die. If you are happy with death, and if you have not passed on your genes, go for it. Honor for the dead is gone when those who remember are gone as well.

You can dispense with the drama queen act David. Did I ever say “screw them”?? No, YOU just made that up of course. On the contrary, it’s your selfish attitude of ‘I will do whatever I have to to save my own ass” that should be condemned.

Well, define your standpoint better. Don't let me draw conclusions because your arguments are bad.

Irrelevant to this discussion, but you can start another thread if you really want to discuss euthanasia or such.

Wrong. It was an example of a gray area in life. Obviously you live in black and white world where nothing is a gray area. There are gray areas in life. It is not as simple as a woman asking for money. The reasons and her character come into question and are not always "she's doing it to con you man!" or "she's having a real hard life, give her all the help you can." Its neither, but it could be both. Its a gray area.

So, what’s your point David? I certainly am aware that “some” members of the species have acted no better than animals. But trying to justify animal-like behavior based on some historical examples is just plain silly. See jm’s Hitler example…

If you act no better than an animal, then be prepared to be treated like one. I’m sure we can find a nice cage for you…

If you insinuate that I am less of a man, you take away my humanity. Removing the point-of-view that a human being is not human, is the worst punishment you can do to anybody (Example: slavery). Please refrain from making those kind of comments.

My historical examples show you that morality is fluid, and that that type of behavior can be identified as "animalistic." If it is, then we are animals. A + B = C.

If you believe that they would not be marriage material, then we both agree on the main point of this thread.

Negative. I would disagree with you out of spite. However, I will agree with you on certain topics. And I'll agree to this statement:

A woman who takes/asks for money may have a weak/bad character, but it also depends on the circumstances affecting the decision to ask for money. Weak character is not weak character alone. We are not automatons isolated from each other. Her environment affects her as it does anybody. If a person cannot find a better path to turn to except for corruption of character or criminal intent, then the reasons as to why that person made the decision should be scrutinzed to the end (just as MA is doing right now). It is only the people in the relationship who can answer for themselves if their partner is abusing their trust and their honor. Every relationship is different, and as such each should be respected and adhered to differently. What may be MA's woman asking for money in their relationship, may be different than your's Ray. It is black and white, and also gray. It can be both at the same time.

I have throughly enjoyed this conversation with the different folks here. I look forward to more . And yes, even with you Ray   ... can you believe it?

[Xkss2002]

Have the decency to stop running in circles on this before you begin to look foolish.

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Hmmmm....methinks that you are a bit late in that request, Soltero. By about 4 or 5 days.

I find it very interesting how Mark A responds to everything and everyone, MINUS BigStew's question about how he justifies having premarital sex with this woman and maintain his Christian principals. I await patiently the response, along with the rest of you. Be sure to have your Bibles at the ready to follow along with the references that will be provided. King James Version preferred, but please make due with what is available to you. 

[markanthony7]

Common Law

[jm21-2]

First of all, we can begin to get real technical here and start quoting authors and surveys, etc. But I think we should just stick to paraphrasing history for the condensed version of these arguments/discussions. Agree?

Sure. I wouldn't take that much effort anyways.

So let me get this straight. Planting and irrigating crops is only from morality? So nevermind about the "trying to survive and live part" huh?

At the time people started planting crops, they could have foraged for foods. Planting crops was just easier and a bit more stable. Is trying to achieve a better, more luxurious lifestyle part of the drive to survive? I don't think so. I suppose that showing off a Gucci purse, bragging about your new car or 120" plasma TV, or eating beluga caviar are all part of the instinctual drive to survive?

It is only when people live together does moraliy come into existence.

And this is where you get into concepts of natural law, and where I urge you to read philosophy instead of my posts. Basically, the idea that morality is determined by society and is only valid because it is properly promulgated is a philosophical outlook that has not been around very long, has caused quite a few bad results (including the support of dictatorships, and the aforementioned Nazis), and is mostly favored by self-styled intellectuals who are out of touch with reality.

Let's basically say it this way: if you think the Nazis were morally correct, you win. If not, I win.

But how that group of people decides on what is moral and immoral is FLUID!

And again, it's not that fluid. Find me a society where stealing or murder is not a crime. Where incest or adultery is moral behavior...just to name a few...

Sidenote: Gender is fluid. Example: Frogs that grow the opposite sex genetalia to reproduce. Even in out society, people can have sex-operations. There's also asexual reproduction. A little different notion, but I would still say "fluid."

The scientific consensus right now is that gender in humans is biological and pre-natal. I could care less about what it is like in frogs or other species. Sexual re-assignment surgery only changes the physical organs, and even with hormonal treatment does not really change the gender of a person. Transexuals, after hormonal treatment and a sex change operation still train to act like the opposite sex, and most members of the sex can still spot them in a crowd. Homosexuality, transgenderism, transexualism, etc. are almost certainly not fluid. The idea that gender is fluid, to the extent you make it out to be, came from fraudulent studies conducted in the '60s and '70s that were disproven in the '90s.

I can't answer your question as to why humans have emotions, but I would believe it has to do with our perceptions of our interactions in the environment around us, and our higher brain funtions. You think that emotions are in humans to encourage good moral decision making? Where do you get this stuff JM? Try not to include God, or some religious exert in your response, because I feel it coming on, and I don't think there is too much room for religion in this thread.

First, I'm an atheist, and a pretty hard-core atheist at that (I don't believe in any sort of higher being(s) ). Just to get that out of the way. I think you're absolutely right it's part of our higher brain functions, which is essentially what I argued. We have the capacity to make right or wrong decisions (because we aren't simply concerned with base survival instincts), and suffer the consequences if we make bad decisions.

The German's in 1920's and 30's were in a horrific depression, mainlly caused by world war 1, and the accords placed on them from the signing at Versaille. As a result, the building tension left a vaccum for healing. When Hilter rose as a figure with an answer (blame the Jews) people found an outlet for their pain from the economic depression. Unfortunately it was hatred and realising that tension and pain upon the Jews. So in essence, morality shifted. It became "ok" in the German publics view to kill Jews. Obviously the rest of the world, whose morality was different, was still moderately balanced about the deaths of fellow human beings. So yes, morality is fluid.

Actually, if you look at judicial opinions from the time, you will get a slightly different picture. Judges during the period basically went along with the "the law is promulgated properly by the government, so there's nothing we can do" attitude, even though many of them thought it was morally wrong. If people had just done the moral thing and stood up for what most thought, especially in retrospect, was a horrible thing, the horrible genocide wouldn't have happened. If you'll look at the basic law in Germany, it reflects an incredibly strong desire to never have such an atrocity happen again, and commands government officials to take account of the dignity of all human beings.

Although there may be circumstances which influence a person or people to act in an immoral way, that doesn't change the fact that it's immoral. While you can say the Germans were in a bad spot, and so looked to hitler for rejuvenation, and were willing to ignore the atrocities they committed, it doesn't make genocide morally correct. It just means that the typical German didn't have the moral fortitude to say "prosperity be damned, i'd rather die in a gutter than be part of one of the most atrocious acts in human history!" You can forgive them, you can make excuses for them, but I really hope that you don't truly believe that genocide is morally correct.

Another good place to look is slavery in America. Judges, even abolitionist judges, would adhere to the laws regarding slavery, even though they thought it was a horrible, inhumane practice, because the formal rules told them that's how they must do it. Quite literally tormented with the idea of allowing slavery, they nevertheless felt they had to support it in their official role. If they had just struck down the slavery laws they knew to be immoral, we'd all be thanking them for it today.

[michaelb]

Common Law

Wait a minute.......I suppose you can live your life the way you please, but setting that kind of example, who do you expect to take you seriously as a marriage agency manager or a preacher?

[utopiacowboy]

"I am very happily married to women who respects me too much to ask for money."

She not only respects you too much to ask for money, she respects HERSELF too much to ask for money.