Petitions for money inappropriate?

[Ray]

If you would be so kind as to come fown from the horse Ray, I can barely see you up there 

I guess it’s all a matter of perspective David. From way down there in gutter with the horse crap, it must be hard to see anything clearly… 

To Ray and Jeff:
If you have more faith, congrats. Personally, life isn't too sweet to have faith all the time. Here in America you can have it, in other places, its a little more rare to come by. As for how I think, it has NOTHING to do with my moral standards. My morals are in place, I just see the world clearly enough to understand that between life and death, sometimes you need make the immoral or unethical choice to live another day. Once again, I take this to the extreme, life or death. Anything else is just talk for fancy.

But it has EVERYTHING to do with morals. If you are willing to do anything to protect your own hide at the expense of others, then your moral standards suck IMO.

Yes David, I have faced real death before and never once thought to take the cowardly way out just to save my own ass. If that’s your standard, then you will just have to live with it. I’m sorry, but I have NO respect for that attitude, but then again that’s just me.

Go ahead and have your respect for the man who dies with honor. I do too. But if that man did not reproduce before he died, then his genes end. He failed to do the very first requirement of living on this planet, reproduce. Just because you have honor, doesn't mean you need to die for it.

Huh? Reproducing is the most important thing in life to you? Sounds rather self-centered to me. What a sorry state we are in if that’s the prevailing attitude today. Anybody can shoot a load of sperm and produce a baby, even a monkey. Big deal!  If a coward’s genes die off, then I think we will all be better off.

People aren't cowards who save their own bacon, their masters of surviving. In life you've got three options: move, die, or adapt. If you can't do two of those, you're out of the game.

I beg to differ. A man who will step on another to save his own bacon IS a coward. You can either stand up like a man in the face of danger or tuck your tail between your legs and run away so you can live to reproduce another day. But it’s certainly your right to be a coward if you choose and I put my life on the line in the military to defend that right.

Personally, I despise cowards!   

[Ray]

For the 900th time I am not excusing this behaviour!!

…and again these women do this because they are poor not because they are greedy gold diggers

DUH! You just did it again!     


Excuses!
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[markanthony7]

Jeff you are way out of context!!! we are not talking about marrying hookers, the subject is about how to deal with an apparent negative situation if a young lady you are involved with inappropriately ask you for money, you imputed this hooker theme not me or David

[Jeff S]

Talk about out of context. It was YOU who said this:

But I personally believe that if the situation is dire enought (perhaps not in MA's) that anyone would turn to crime or whatever means necessary to survive.

In response to the main precept: You understand how a poor woman in need of money might string a man along and lie to him in order to extract money, and maybe you could salvage the relationship, I responded that she always has choices, and choosing to con you instead of figuring out how to make it on her own, is revealing enough of her character that I surely don't want her. If you want to rescue a damsel in distress and end up with a distressed damsel, go ahead. That's not what I want as a partner in life.

[markanthony7]

Jeff this where you are inempathetic, a lot of times in Colombia there is no making it on your own, or picking yourself up by the bootstraps, thats in America!, if you are down you can embetter yourself, they dont have opportunity period! you need a little Mary Mother Theresa in you, what happens sometimes is that we live in comfort and convenience in America where there is wealth, professional and economical opportunity and its difficult for us to empathize with someone Else's sufferage, life works like this my ex-wife never tried to con me out money but in the end her and her lawyer tried to tear me 3 new [snip]s!, when you look at things form this perspective, issues like what we are discussing become irrelevant or insignificant

[Ray]

...issues like what we are discussing become irrelevant or insignificant

So lying and conning you out of money are irrelevant and/or insignificant?

                   B S !

 

[Jeff S]

OK Mark. You win. It's perfectly fine for women to con men out of money in Colombia, since there's no other possible way for them to survive.

Great sales job for your agency: Come to Colombia for a wife. We have beautiful women who are so desperate they have to lie and cheat to survive. Think of how great those skills will carry over into life in America! Just think, she might even become a successful politician!

[Dan Las Vegas]

"We have beautiful women who are so desperate they have to lie and cheat to survive. Think of how great those skills will carry over into life in America! Just think, she might even become a successful politician!"

Or at the very least, her own reality show!

[EbonyPrince]

Mark you totally are missing my points.  I agree I may be a little judgemental, but I am also logical.  I have seen the poor conditions in which you speak in Colombia and the DR.  It is horrible and I don't want to imagine, but my boy can tell you people live under some of the same conditions in parts of the old South (namely his family and the stories he tells when he goes to visit). 

Mark these are their conditions which they are used to.  Everyone doesn't live the same as we do here in America or in some other well-off countries, these are just basic facts.  You mentioned that you have been dating for four years (I think).  Having an American boyfriend somewhat makes her situation much better than the average Colombian.  If she respected you and loved you enough, she would not have come at you that way.  No it may not have been that bad, because you didn't elaborate.  I would have more respect for a person begging on the street.

My point simply is that the character that she has shown is a part of her and her patterns.  Those patterns will present themselves again at some point again in her life either here or in Colombia.  Your pastoral outlook for bad character is nice, but that is not reality Mark.  You are making excuses whether you see it or not, and I am only trying to say that there are other women out there with a better quality of character where you won't have to ask these questions. 

[markanthony7]

1. I am not making excuses or condoning bad behaviour for 901 millionth time!, I am cognizant of it as well and I cite it as an indiscretion and I am not suggesting you or anyone should be tolerant of it or expose your self or make your self vulnerable to be exploited by someone that is a confidence artist

2. My suggestion is rooted in the Judea Christan ethic about forgiveness 1st and then change, people can change, change what? they can change their "attitude" or under go a "paradigm shift", now one thing I unilaterally agree with everyone about, is if this malady is in her "characther" than forget it!!!!, you cannot change someones "characther" but a person can change their "attitude" and through communication you can determine if someone is a "bad person" or has a "bad habit" and needs an "attitude adjustment" , a good example is cigarette smoking, just because a person has a bad smoking habit does not make them a b ad person morally

[Jeff S]

Please do have empathy and forgive them. I have no problem with that and would forgive them myself. It's just a non-negotiable knock-out factor when seeking a wife for me. Your mileage may vary.

[EbonyPrince]

I agree Mark it is your decision as to what you will put up with.  You know her better than I, and I feel that you are intelligent enough to know if she is good enough for you or not.  Just don't be blinded by your feelings for her. 

Speaking of cigarettes ONE of the reasons that I divorced my ex is because she smoked when I met her and she eventually quit.  Shen then went back to smoking behind my back and lied about it everytime I would confront her.  She was not a bad person morally, but she continued what I thought was bad behaviour.  One of the decisions I had to make is would she change that behavior for me and her kids, and she proved over and over that her mindset was such that that wasn't going to happen.  That pattern obviously couldn't be changed.  Her thought process was different than mine, and she knew I was never going to marry her as long as she smoked.  She did what she had to do to get what she wanted as a lot of people do...

[David]

"Where once I was blind, now I can see."

I see reality Ray. I see that this planet is a "save your skin, 'cause no one else will" kind of planet. The problem is that we currently have such a non-violent or life threatening existence in our society, we have become complacent in our ideology. "Struggling to survive? pfft! What's that?"

I just don't get ya Ray  . You seem to not understand that the point of any species is to reproduce. Since when did our contemporary ideology replace reproduction? Specially you're reproduction. Dying for honor, is just dying.

But it has EVERYTHING to do with morals. If you are willing to do anything to protect your own hide at the expense of others, then your moral standards suck IMO.

Yes David, I have faced real death before and never once thought to take the cowardly way out just to save my own ass. If that’s your standard, then you will just have to live with it. I’m sorry, but I have NO respect for that attitude, but then again that’s just me.

Maybe I should clarify, because you're mixing my argument with my beliefs. I'm playing devils advocate with you here Ray. But you are also intentionally grouping my beliefs into my argument. I think that if you are threatened enough, you will take action and protect yourself from harm, even if it means committing an atrocity. What really mystifies me is how you can say that you won't protect your own bacon when caught in a sling. For example: A relative of yours is dying. You can euthanize them and save the misery, or let them die slowly in pain. You may have to make the immoral choice for the greater good. You may have to kill your relative because of the pain. Not everything is black and white, and you know this, so why stand in those areas? Come to the gray side, its warmer, and makes life a little easier.

You don't have to respect it, but I think you could understand it.

Huh? Reproducing is the most important thing in life to you? Sounds rather self-centered to me. What a sorry state we are in if that’s the prevailing attitude today. Anybody can shoot a load of sperm and produce a baby, even a monkey. Big deal!  If a coward’s genes die off, then I think we will all be better off.

So spreading your genes is not the endgame result/winning prize for our species? Can someone please explain to me when contemporary ideology took this over? Between existence and nothingness, you'll go with nothingness because of "honor?" You can't have honor, when you're dead and so is the rest of the plant. Nor can the rest of your family lineage if you don't reproduce. Hell, you should have DISHONOR for NOT reproducing and ending 1000's of years of genes. You can single handedly end and destroy your genes. What gives you the right?

I beg to differ. A man who will step on another to save his own bacon IS a coward. You can either stand up like a man in the face of danger or tuck your tail between your legs and run away so you can live to reproduce another day. But it’s certainly your right to be a coward if you choose and I put my life on the line in the military to defend that right.

Its ok Ray, I'll take a rain check on begging  . Save it for the next time when you want me to end the discussion, 'cause I've destroyed your argument .

Sometimes you got to pick your battles. Its amazing you're not in prison Ray, with that mindset. You'd be fighting and killing everyone. Sometimes you've got to realize you're losing a fight and its better to pull out, then to run straight into death. Saving your bacon, lets you fight for another day, and live Its a win-win situation. Death seems to be a lose-lose outcome. Wouldn't you say? 

Jeff:
I proposed the question of hookers. I was just curious to find out the points-of-view on that subject in relation to surviving.

[flipflop]

As a matter of pride and honor my wife would have never asked me for money no matter the circumstances. This is the kind of character and integrity I was looking for in a woman. She understood the ethical and moral implications of such a request and would not have placed herself at  a disadvantage to someone she loves and respects.

When I left the PI I gave her all the cash i had on me at the time, about $250. When she arrived in America she had that cash with her.

[jm21-2]

David,

As humans, we have enough mental capacity to make decisions other species can't. We can decide to save a stranger and "end our genes." We can decide that someone else's well-being is more important than our own.

The idea of humans being a species of reason, and thus different from say, a frog, has been around for thousands of years. It is not some contemporary ideology...actually, if anything the recent trend seems to be away from the idea that human reason is special, and that your idea of humans being the same as animals is correct. It's a pretty sad state of affairs. My personal belief is that if you make the decision to survive or reproduce instead of doing the morally correct thing (and morality is a lot more constant between time periods and cultures than some would have you think...), you are tossing away your humanity. You are giving up the one thing that makes you human. So what does that make you? An animal that can suffer from depression and all sorts of mental illnesses? An animal ridden with guilt? No thanks.

So David, you would kill a relative to save some money and to ease your own suffering? If they're conscious enough to feel pain, they can make their own decision, I would think.

Right, and we should punish people for standing up for their beliefs, for not being cowards, or for not giving up easily? Where the hell do you live David? I hope not America.

Thankfully most people I know would rather die as a man than live as a dog.

EDIT:
And if all you're interested in is survival and reproduction, why bother with marriage? It's obviously not the best way to accomplish those things. The same goes for a girl who is just interested in that...talk about horrible wife material.

[markanthony7]

For the sake of argument I want to split a hair is it her characther that is immoral or unethical? or does the  environment that she is subjected too negatively influence her?. in professional sports there are a lot of African Americans that have off the field problems because they don't change the people they associate with and the environment they come from, I am asking a question would she be a better person if she was alienated from some of the negative influence she was subjected too against her will and placed in a positive environment where she has opportunity, a stable relationship motivated by love and support, or is this approach unrealistic?

[soltero]

It's about character. Your example of athletes, although flawed, can also be applied. You say that there are "a lot" of athletes that get into this or that because they don't change the people they associate with. The flaw in that argument is that there aren't "a lot" of athletes that have issues, it is just the few that do stay in the press. If you think about it, there really aren't that many when compared to the group as a whole that are having problems. You keep wanting to find external causes for negative behavior. I am not saying there aren't external causes or influences. You have not acknowledged, however, that there are people who exist with those same negative influences that do not act negatively. Admitting that simple and obvious truth may alleviate your constantly returning to the same thing over and over. Rephrasing it will not change the answer.

In the case of your girl, she may have tested you based on suggestions by others or of her own accord. When you reacted negatively, she had to weigh whether or not it was in her own best interest to drop it. She may have been put up to it, and when it didn't work out the way she was told it would, then she made the decision to keep on getting whatever it is you share with her rather than lose it all. She may not be completely cutthroat, but still, she can be influenced to do dirt, so that makes her equally suspect. This is all hypothetical, as I don't know her. As you are so ready to head towards scripture and verse as the source of your brainstormings, I believe there is something in there regarding free will. A person has a choice to do what ever. Some people choose to go one way and others choose another. In the beginning of a relationship, you have less invested, and the wise person should choose to take the road lined with the least amount of bull[snip] covering it. That person will be presented with more choices as the have freed themselves of one they decided was not right for them.

You say that we have more opportunities here. I do not disagree with you, but  I say we have the same types of people here that live there both good and bad and in between. The fact that there is truth in that kinda kills your whole environment argument.

David got beaten up over stating a simple truth. Biologically the sole reason for any organism to exist is to reproduce. Differentiating humans from other animals is just some type of arrogance as that is what we are regardless of higher brain function. I wouldn't have gone there personally the way he did because it didn't strengthen his argument, but what he said was simplistically true.

Simplistically true; such as sticking your hand in fire will burn you. Free will; if you want to stick your hand in fire and get burned, that's your business. If a person tries to screw you over for money, then regardless of where they learned it, it still depends on their character whether or not they will act on it. Some people have strong characters, and others don't. Some people are influenced by others or outside influences, and others aren't. Since everyone in some way comes in contact with others or outside influences and everyone reacts differently to those same influences, what do YOU think causes them to do so?

I would call that character or, if it sinks in better for you, strength (or lack thereof) of that free will that the clergy likes to preach about. I don't see anyone splitting that hair other than you, the theological representative you keep reminding us that you are.

[markanthony7]

Soletro, You make a lot of valid points but the whole issue I personally feel everyone is circumventing is about  your perfect analogy the "free will' from the Christian perspective thats the catalyst of the Christian faith the ability to "change" once a person comes under a positive influence and a more ethical or moral conviction, I personally feel you are omitting in your deduction first empathy and the ability to "forgive", have you ever done something you look back on and regret?, have you ever made mistakes or had a certain attitude about something until you were re indoctrinated or had a paradigm shift?, nobody is perfect and neither are these women, "as beautiful, affectionate and loyal as they are "every rose has a thorn", look I am not making excuses for bad conduct , I am saying in so many words its not always good to be to stringrent and critical with people and their short comings and faults, the gospel him says "he looked beyond my faults and saw my needs" considering the environment and impoverishment that they derive from is essential in the "discernment of character" or "negative influence", I believe a wrong can be made right a flat tire can be fixed and initially if a young lady demonstrates this behaviour, it can be eradicated depending on how and this is important she responds to you reproofing her of her debacle but if she remains insolent after you confront her with her indiscretion than its probably best to avoid her altogether, in my personal situation after we communicated about the issue it never really happened again and the relationship has been successful and rewarding mutually

[Ray]

David, I can see where you are coming from, except for that point about killing my relatives to end their pain. What has that got to do with the argument about doing anything necessary to save your life so you can reproduce, or turning to crime because you were poor and hungry? Nothing!

Of course I would protect myself from harm. But I would not justify harming other innocents just to save my myself. A dumb animal will fight and kill for the right to reproduce. A dumb animal will kill another’s offspring to promote the domination of it’s own genes over those of another. Dumb animals will kill each other over a scrap of food when they are hungry. Is that what you really want, a world where animal instincts dictate and justify your behavior? Sounds like total anarchy to me...

No David, you have done nothing to destroy my argument. You claimed that given the right circumstances ANYONE would turn to crime or do WHATEVER was needed to survive. I disagreed with your assumption that ANYONE would act like you would. All you have done is reinforce the fact that YOU would turn to crime or whatever you needed to do to survive. Speak for yourself but please don’t assume to speak for all.

All this argument that weak character and bad behavior should be justified by circumstances only reinforces those of weak character.

Forget all of that other crap for a moment. The whole point of this discussion was whether or not you should accept a person of weak character for a spouse because perhaps she would change some day. I say no! What do you say?

[markanthony7]

Ray all I am saying is that some of these young ladies like you and me have faults, "every rose has its thorns" oh I forgot you take a perfect pill everyday and your character is flawless impeccable

[soltero]

Soltero, You make a lot of valid points but the whole issue I personally feel everyone is circumventing is about  your perfect analogy the "free will' from the Christian perspective thats the catalyst of the Christian faith the ability to "change" once a person comes under a positive influence and a more ethical or moral conviction, I personally feel you are omitting in your deduction first empathy and the ability to "forgive", have you ever done something you look back on and regret?, have you ever made mistakes or had a certain attitude about something until you were re indoctrinated or had a paradigm shift?, nobody is perfect and neither are these women, "as beautiful, affectionate and loyal as they are "every rose has a thorn", look I am not making excuses for bad conduct , I am saying in so many words its not always good to be to stringrent and critical with people and their short comings and faults, the gospel him says "he looked beyond my faults and saw my needs" considering the environment and impoverishment that they derive from is essential in the "discernment of character" or "negative influence", I believe a wrong can be made right a flat tire can be fixed and initially if a young lady demonstrates this behaviour, it can be eradicated depending on how and this is important she responds to you reproofing her of her debacle but if she remains insolent after you confront her with her indiscretion than its probably best to avoid her altogether, in my personal situation after we communicated about the issue it never really happened again and the relationship has been successful and rewarding mutually

Mark, personally, I stopped doing things I regretted when I was a child. Once I saw that my actions negatively affected others, I quit doing whatever it was. By the time I was a young adult, I made myself a simple vow that if I felt I was about to do something I would be ashamed of or regret, I simply would not follow that path. I am a firm believer in keeping things simple, and the older I get, the simpler I like things to be.

"Don't start none, won't be none."

The one area in my adult life where I do have regrets is the area of the heart. I have wasted too much time on women who weren't what I deserved. I was following the premise that people can change and coming up on the short end of the stick. It took me a long time to realize that any change a person makes is up to them, and sitting around dealing with their bull[snip] while waiting for that to happen is ultimately a waste of precious time. Again, I had to make a conscious effort to change that within myself to seek out someone who was already where I wanted them to be instead of believing  that they would eventually change. You would think that if someone saw a different way to be, they would accept it if it was better, but that is rarer than you may want to believe. Most folks just keep doing whatever they have been doing no matter what is going on around them.

As far as forgiveness, everyone gets an automatic pass with me. I don't have the time to carry around the negative baggage grudge holding saddles you with. I also do not judge others. My comments here are not judgments, but observations.  All I can do is make sure I do the right thing and not allow myself to become involved in any shadiness.If someone else does, then all I can do is give my opinion on the situation and let them take from that what they choose to. Free will and all that...

It sounds to me that your girl tested you and you passed. Women will do that from time to time in different ways. That may have been all that was.

[EbonyPrince]

For the sake of argument I want to split a hair is it her characther that is immoral or unethical? or does the  environment that she is subjected too negatively influence her?.

I think that this question has been answered over and over.  I don't know if I would call the character immoral.  I am not sure about unethical, because that depends upon the nature and circumstance that it was presented.  You didn't give a lot of detail.  I would say however that it is very bad character simply for trying to con or trick you out of the money.

Soltero broke everything down and I can't elaborate more.  He simply stated everything that I was saying in a more eloquent way.  He also spoke from a very logical and realistic standpoint.

Biologically the sole reason for any organism to exist is to reproduce. Differentiating humans from other animals is just some type of arrogance as that is what we are regardless of higher brain function. I wouldn't have gone there personally the way he did because it didn't strengthen his argument, but what he said was simplistically true.

AGREED.

You claimed that given the right circumstances ANYONE would turn to crime or do WHATEVER was needed to survive. I disagreed with your assumption that ANYONE would act like you would. All you have done is reinforce the fact that YOU would turn to crime or whatever you needed to do to survive. Speak for yourself but please don’t assume to speak for all.

AGREE in principle. 

All this argument that weak character and bad behavior should be justified by circumstances only reinforces those of weak character.

Hmmm...I don't feel the conclusion is necessarily true.  Some people are just more bleeding heart, far left thinkers.  Some people have way too much faith in all of mankind and feel that everyone can be saved.  IMO those thoughts are not realistic. 

[Kiltboy1]

MM

kind of like saying it's ok to rob a bank because the rent is due

Nope

KB

[markanthony7]

Soletero, I agree with you that it is a  waste of time to wait for someone to change and maybe they could meet your criteria and be the prototype of the person you want them to be, my argument is simply this maybe they are already the person that is ideal for you they may must need a minor "attitude adjustment" a good example would be if you have a tire that is in good shape and relatively new and it gets a hole, you dont throw it away you see if it is repairable and you can patch it first and its the same in a relationship, I don't care how right someone else is for you if you have been involved with them you are going to have differences and issues that surface, even the Brady Bunch as mamby, bamby as they were had problems, I am saying the issue deserves at the very least to be scrutinized you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water

[markanthony7]

Kittleboy asking for money and robbing a bank is not a good analogy, that is an extreme example