Petitions for money inappropriate?

[Ray]

       



F L U S H    H E R !      

[soltero]

Mark, do not take this the wrong way, as it is a purely objective observation, but you really don't seem to listen to what anybody says about anything. Maybe you do, but it does not appear that way. It seems that you repeatedly try to work things back around to whatever you consider the situation to be disregarding the input of others.

You can "work around" anything if you choose to in a relationship. If your wife cheats on you, you could forgive her or choose to move on. I do not see where you have made a point here at all, except that you are willing to take more bull[snip] than most (if not all) of the other posters here.

[markanthony7]

Of course I am listening to what you say, I just don't digest everything you say, in ministry we use to say you eat the meat and spit out the bones, I agree with somethings presented for argument and disagree with others in partiality, I have greatly profited from the wealth of information that has been shared . it made me look with introspection, weigh and evaluate and even change some of the former values I previously embraced, again I exhaust a subject, its similar to a think tank or an in depth bible study, I guess because I was a minister and bible teacher for many tears and prose litigant , I am use to this type of debating and mental challenge

[jm21-2]

Of course I am listening to what you say, I just don't digest everything you say, in ministry we use to say you eat the meat and spit out the bones, I agree with somethings presented for argument and disagree with others in partiality, I have greatly profited from the wealth of information that has been shared . it made me look with introspection, weigh and evaluate and even change some of the former values I previously embraced, again I exhaust a subject, its similar to a think tank or an in depth bible study, I guess because I was a minister and bible teacher for many tears and prose litigant , I am use to this type of debating and mental challenge

So, in other words, preachers listen to what they want to hear and pretend like everything else doesn't exist? Seems about right to me...glad to hear a preacher agree with me.

[markanthony7]

JM you are wrong, in ministry we used to call that "selective listening", I am saying some of the legitmate arguments you and others raised in this discussion did modify my thinking and cause a paradigm shift but just not everything single nuances I agreed with, so your consultation was effective and not in vain

And again you don't see it like I see it because I am an agency owner and this question is presented to me more often than you, but I will bet my last dollar that many people reading this thread have greatly benefited, as they must consider these determinable factors or variables in a relationship and money

[David]

I understand where MA is going with this. He hears you guys, especially you Ray, but he's not just in it for advice. He's here to have a thoughtful, meaningful, intellectual discussion about this topic and the various angles involved. For most of you the road just points to ending the relationship, and also for those of you who have drawn your conclusions from your own experiences.

For some of the "posters" here in this thread. I would now conclude that MA is going to perhaps factor in a lot of this discussion into a choice that he is coming into in his relationship. This discussion may be the final straw that breaks the camels back the relationship. I don't know how many people here are friends, but in a different forum I participate in, we are all friends and support, help, and try to understand each other. If you don't want to help or understand MA, his thought process or his motivations, why keep coming back to this thread?

[markanthony7]

And sometimes it is not as cut and dry with some relationships, especially when you have been involved with some one for a length of time, a person can develop a strong emotional bond with a young lady and even be in love with her, consequently severing the relationship ties is not as simplistic as it sounds or you make it to be. There may well be men going through this dilemma as we expound upon this subject and are intently listening, its far easier to terminate a relationship when you are not deeply emotionally and romantically attached to the young lady and that could be the reason its not as complex in another persons mind to abruptly end a relationship and some men are just plain lonely, you have nothing to look forward to in America and the young lady you are dating in SA is all you got and that even compounds the problem because you are separated by space and time

[jm21-2]

I understand where MA is going with this. He hears you guys, especially you Ray, but he's not just in it for advice. He's here to have a thoughtful, meaningful, intellectual discussion about this topic and the various angles involved. For most of you the road just points to ending the relationship, and also for those of you who have drawn your conclusions from your own experiences.

For some of the "posters" here in this thread. I would now conclude that MA is going to perhaps factor in a lot of this discussion into a choice that he is coming into in his relationship. This discussion may be the final straw that breaks the camels back the relationship. I don't know how many people here are friends, but in a different forum I participate in, we are all friends and support, help, and try to understand each other. If you don't want to help or understand MA, his thought process or his motivations, why keep coming back to this thread?

From previous threads, I am not sure whether it is possible to have a thoughtful, meaningful, intelligent discussion with MA. He has proven time and again that his head is made of stone.

One of the great aspects I've seen about this forum is that people are willing to give hard advice, argue with each other, and there's not as much PC-ness or touchy feely BS. That's what keeps me coming back here, I don't know about anyone else: candid, straightforward advice.

I'd suggest that instead of having a discussion with us here on the topic, ostensibly on behalf of his clients, he should tell his clients to get on the forum and ask the quesiton themselves, giving the factual specifics of their case. I suppose MA likes to feel important though, and have the attention on himself, so he wouldn't want to do something like that, even though it's probably in his client's best interest.

MA - people who are lonely or infatuated are the exact people who need strong, stern advice about dumping the girl! Are you suggesting that someone should hang on to a questionable girl and be used because he's lonely?!?!?!? Or because he's infatuated with her?!?? They are the precise people who need advice from those who aren't attached, who can give clear-headed advice!

[Ray]

I understand where MA is going with this.

If you don't want to help or understand MA, his thought process or his motivations, why keep coming back to this thread?

David,

I'm glad that you understand where he is going because I don't think he knows himself.

Personally, I have no desire to understand MA, his thought process, or his motivations. That's not why I am here and it would be a total waste of my time.

HOWEVER, when you have some guy trying to justify bad behavior by blaming it on poverty or cultural differences or any number of other excuses, then I feel the need to speak up, lest some new guys like you actually start to believe this nonsense.

Lying and trying to con a man out of money is bad character, period. Anyone who overlooks that kind of major character flaw in a prospective mate because of loneliness, love, pity, time invested, or whatever, is a fool IMO.

But if you choose to buy into his BS, then that is certainly your right.

Ray

[Ray]

One of the great aspects I've seen about this forum is that people are willing to give hard advice, argue with each other, and there's not as much PC-ness or touchy feely BS.

...candid, straightforward advice.

     

[markanthony7]

1. No J-m What I am saying is that it is a personal decision that might be difficult for some one  in a dilemma such as we are discussing and that might need your complete advice or partial advice each individual situation is diffrent no set of circumstances is exactly a like but each person must evaluate hie situation and apply what is applicable to his relationship

2. Ray you are a hard as were you an ex- Marine?

3. J-M and Ray lighten up!!, remember I was a Pastor for years so I have a soft side and heart of compassion, without that you would not be a very good Clergyman, I am used to discussing problems with people and helping them work through difficult situations, taking a lemon and making lemonade

[soltero]

1. No J-m What I am saying is that it is a personal decision that might be difficult for some one  in a dilemma such as we are discussing and that might need your complete advice or partial advice each individual situation is diffrent no set of circumstances is exactly a like but each person must evaluate hie situation and apply what is applicable to his relationship

2. Ray you are a hard as were you an ex- Marine?

3. J-M and Ray lighten up!!, remember I was a Pastor for years so I have a soft side and heart of compassion, without that you would not be a very good Clergyman, I am used to discussing problems with people and helping them work through difficult situations, taking a lemon and making lemonade

That's all well and good, Mark, but honestly and simply (without all the preachy talk)....


What part of "it's bad character" are you trying to rationalize here? If you are okay with that for whatever reason, that's fine, but can we at least come to the agreement that it is a character flaw no matter what the situation is, so that any confused folk that actually are trying to listen can be clear about that point?

[jm21-2]

3. J-M and Ray lighten up!!, remember I was a Pastor for years so I have a soft side and heart of compassion, without that you would not be a very good Clergyman

Whatever happened to holding yourself and others to high standards of conduct? Not compromising on your morals? I guess that's not important to being a pastor or clergyman? Ahhh...the times have changed since the fire and brimstone of the olden days...

[David]

David,

I'm glad that you understand where he is going because I don't think he knows himself.

Personally, I have no desire to understand MA, his thought process, or his motivations. That's not why I am here and it would be a total waste of my time.

HOWEVER, when you have some guy trying to justify bad behavior by blaming it on poverty or cultural differences or any number of other excuses, then I feel the need to speak up, lest some new guys like you actually start to believe this nonsense.

Lying and trying to con a man out of money is bad character, period. Anyone who overlooks that kind of major character flaw in a prospective mate because of loneliness, love, pity, time invested, or whatever, is a fool IMO.

But if you choose to buy into his BS, then that is certainly your right.

Ray

Well, I guess I don't know the man enough. Let me make it clear that I am not arguing for him, but for the fact of the discussion.

I agree that conning someone out of anything is bad character. But I personally believe that if the situation is dire enought (perhaps not in MA's) that anyone would turn to crime or whatever means necessary to survive.

I don't pretend to know the Bible. Never read it. But the morals expressed in it are worth knowing. The quote "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone," comes to mind in this case. How many of you can truly say you wouldn't turn to the criminal element when facing death?

That's all well and good, Mark, but honestly and simply (without all the preachy talk)....


What part of "it's bad character" are you trying to rationalize here? If you are okay with that for whatever reason, that's fine, but can we at least come to the agreement that it is a character flaw no matter what the situation is, so that any confused folk that actually are trying to listen can be clear about that point?

But how big is the fault if it depends on the circumstances? If there was no circumstances, there would be no fault. Now I'm not saying its a perfect world, but if the danger level is high, then the result may come at the cost of "bad character." I'd put up my character any day of the week just to live, wouldn't everyone else?

[markanthony7]

A point needs to be clarified, I am not rationalizing bad behaviour or misconduct, in doing so you encourage a person to be immoral and exacerbate the situation and make it progressively worse, if you review my earlier post I said after a stern rebuke and confronting her about her indiscretion and if she is remorseful, there might be hope of a true reconciliation but if she is unrepentative and alienates her self from you, this is an indication that she is an opportunist and she should be avoided , by no stretch of the imagination am I suggesting that a person should leave themselves vulnerable to be exploited by anybody dirt poor or not but on the other hand I don't see anything wrong with being empathetic to the adverse social condition these women are subjected too, they can be a product of their environment and perhaps if a good man takes them from a negative environment and placed them in a positive environment, motivated with love she might be a virtuous woman, may be I am an optimist but I see a lot of good qualities in these women despite some of the perceived idiosyncrasy's

[Jeff S]

But I personally believe that if the situation is dire enought (perhaps not in MA's) that anyone would turn to crime or whatever means necessary to survive.

I don't. There are always options. If you're talking about robbing a bank because someone has a gun to your head, you are not committing a crime.

We're talking about acting immorally, though, not committing a crime, and we're not talking about a level necessary to survive, we're talking about choices. Instead of expending her time and money in an internet cafe lying to what she thinks are rich gringos eager to get into her pants in the hopes of getting a few dollars, she could be out looking for a job, or doing services for others to make the money. Every hooker has a hard luck story, but plenty of hard luck stories never turn to hooking.

- Jeff

[Ray]

Well David, I guess we just don’t think alike.

But I personally believe that if the situation is dire enough...that anyone would turn to crime or whatever means necessary to survive.

I don’t believe that David. I guess I have more faith in my fellow man. If that’s how you think, then I guess we just don’t have the same moral standards.

I'd put up my character any day of the week just to live, wouldn't everyone else?

No, not everyone else David. In my mind, only cowards or people of weak character would do anything to save their own skin. Sometimes a man’s honor is more valuable than his life.

I have the utmost respect for a man who gives his life for his country, or to save another’s life, or to preserve his honor in spite of any danger to his own life. I despise a man who would step on another just to save his own skin.

But then again, that’s just me…

I have nothing against a man who would find it in his heart to forgive another who lied to and tried to steal from him. But we’re here to discuss making proper choices in selecting a mate. You can forgive a lady for committing those acts against you, but if you still marry her anyway, thinking that you can change her ways through some kind of counseling or whatever, then you are a fool IMO.

Ray

[markanthony7]

In my own personal situation with the young lady I am involved with, when she (tried me or lied me) I explained to her that, I was aware of her impoverished situation in Colombia but still what she attempted to do was unethical and disrespectful, I further explained that if she had a genuine need, to just simply ask and trust in my good nature, that if I can help her I will do so, Sometimes its not what you ask for its how you ask!, (in sincerity or cloaked with deception) I never really had this problem again, the reason I selected the empathetic approach was because I was cognizant of the mind set or mentality of Colombians in general, ( I say this carefully because I don't like to stereotype people)

[Ray]

...because I was cognizant of the mind set or mentality of Colombians in general, ( I say this carefully because I don't like to stereotype people)

You just did...

It's NOT Colombians, it's HER!

DUMP HER!

[markanthony7]

But we made love last night under the Carribbean sky, there were angels hovering over us, she has beautiful Latin eyes, caramel skin, her tongue is like fruit, her hair is like long and like satin!! , I cant, I cant, I cant!!!!!

[bad40]

LOL LOL LOL LOL

priceless! now i understand why the new promised for the website on october 1 are not loaded up yet.....

enjoy......

[EbonyPrince]

You can forgive a lady for committing those acts against you, but if you still marry her anyway, thinking that you can change her ways through some kind of counseling or whatever, then you are a fool IMO.

B.I.N.G.O

I further explained that if she had a genuine need, to just simply ask and trust in my good nature, that if I can help her I will do so, Sometimes its not what you ask for its how you ask!,

Someone that truly loves and even respects you would never pull crap like that, I don't care how impoverished they are.

I was cognizant of the mind set or mentality of Colombians in general,

I have spoken to Colombians that will tell you that certain people are bad, and they live in this same impoverished Colombia.  It is not Colombians in general, the fact is it is the bad Colombians.  Using the impoverished card is just enabling the poor behavior of these bad Colombians and excusing away their character flaws as a circumstance of where they live.  You can preach up and down every mountain in the United States and Colombia, but it still doesn't change the fact that some people are just bad...period. 

Now if you are hooked on the booty that's cool, but remember it is what it is.  You may be able to suppress the character for a certain period of time, but the true nature of that person will surface at some point  You have to decide if that is something that you can live with long term, or is it just fun and games right now and you can control the emotional aspects of that fun.

[markanthony7]

For the 900th time I am not excusing this behaviour!!, I said that you can still work around it and salvage a good relationship, I got news for you Ebony Prince you can not have a relationship without forgiveness as one minister said truthfully,all I am saying is no matter who you are involved with she is going to demonstrate imperfection in the course of the relationship and you will too , there is no such thing as a perfect person or a perfect relsationship, some women gossip too much, some, shop to much,  some nag too much, some are not good at sex , some are lazy, etc; get the point, when you get my age and you have been around the block you understand these things, all I am saying if you have a poor Colombian lady and she does something like this to offend you, its not necessarily the end or expedient to terminate the relationship and again these women do this because they are poor not because they are greedy gold diggers, IMO there is a vast difference, the good book even says that its not to wise to be hard on a man if he steals because he is hungry, today we drove through the barrios in Cartagena and I saw the slums, the trash and sub standard living conditions, I wanted to cry it was despicable !!!, everyday I talk with these women and these people and its the same scenario and sad story about poverty and in opportunity, you say these things but you say them from America where we have economical privileges and opportunity, I feel you are judgmental!

[David]

Well David, I guess we just don’t think alike.

I don’t believe that David. I guess I have more faith in my fellow man. If that’s how you think, then I guess we just don’t have the same moral standards.

No, not everyone else David. In my mind, only cowards or people of weak character would do anything to save their own skin. Sometimes a man’s honor is more valuable than his life.

I have the utmost respect for a man who gives his life for his country, or to save another’s life, or to preserve his honor in spite of any danger to his own life. I despise a man who would step on another just to save his own skin.

But then again, that’s just me…

We're talking about acting immorally, though, not committing a crime, and we're not talking about a level necessary to survive, we're talking about choices. Instead of expending her time and money in an internet cafe lying to what she thinks are rich gringos eager to get into her pants in the hopes of getting a few dollars, she could be out looking for a job, or doing services for others to make the money. Every hooker has a hard luck story, but plenty of hard luck stories never turn to hooking.

If you would be so kind as to come fown from the horse Ray, I can barely see you up there 

To Ray and Jeff:
If you have more faith, congrats. Personally, life isn't too sweet to have faith all the time. Here in America you can have it, in other places, its a little more rare to come by. As for how I think, it has NOTHING to do with my moral standards. My morals are in place, I just see the world clearly enough to understand that between life and death, sometimes you need make the immoral or unethical choice to live another day. Once again, I take this to the extreme, life or death. Anything else is just talk for fancy.

Go ahead and have your respect for the man who dies with honor. I do too. But if that man did not reproduce before he died, then his genes end. He failed to do the very first requirement of living on this planet, reproduce. Just because you have honor, doesn't mean you need to die for it.

People aren't cowards who save their own bacon, their masters of surviving. In life you've got three options: move, die, or adapt. If you can't do two of those, you're out of the game.

I don't. There are always options. If you're talking about robbing a bank because someone has a gun to your head, you are not committing a crime.
- Jeff

Jeff:
I agree. There are always options. There's always a way, eventhough it may be hidden from view. I don't condone women for hooking, but it sure beats starving (even if you're not dying).

Question: Is hooking immoral/unethical if you're dependent upon it for survival? Its a job isn't it. It pays bills. It is a an exchange of services for funds. Remember, it wasn't always viewed as being "immoral," only in contemporary times.

[jm21-2]

David,

If you think survival and reproduction are by far the most important things in life, I feel a bit sorry for you.

And I'd like to know during what time period men set out to marry hookers...the way I understand it, the thought of marrying a hooker has only recently become a palatable idea, and only to a select few bleeding heart nutjobs, such as MA. Although it might not be considered immoral at all times or in all cultures, I'm not aware of any times when a hooker has been considered a good choice for a wife. That's what we're ultimately talking about here...not whether it's immoral, but whether it is a quality you would want in a spouse.

Answer: Hooking to put food on the table is still hooking. It's immoral. No different from dealing drugs, murdering, robbing, whatever. What if the hooker lures in a married man, and his wife sits home waiting, wondering what happens to him? What if the hooker spreads AIDS, which ends up killing a bunch of innocent people (including the innocent GFs and spouses of clients)? What if she ends up spending the money on drugs to deal with the trauma of selling herself, which causes the drug trade to expand, which indirectly leads to more drug addictions, deaths from gang and drug related violence, etc, etc...just some examples. Bad acts build on each other and shouldn't be taken as if they're in a vacuum.