Petitions for money inappropriate?

[markanthony7]

Are Colombian and foreign women that petition for financial assistance opportunist's seeking to take advantage of a situation and exploit an unsuspecting person financially or is their behavior motivated by the poor economy and inopportunity they are subjected too or "deprivation of opportunity"?

[michaelb]

That's not an OR type question. You may well have the motivation correct, but, who cares what their motivations are? The fact that they ask for financial assistance  proves they are opportunists, and unsuspecting persons are easier to exploit.

The good thing is that most of them AREN'T opportunists and AREN'T trying to exploit people (unsuspecting or aware).

[markanthony7]

My reason for presenting the subject for discussion is that , I personally have mixed emotions about this complex issue at times it seems wrong but on the other hand I also see the extreme "deprivation of opportunity" these women are subjected too and I go back and forth in my mind about this issue, I don't know if I need to be more empathetic or stringent about this conduct

[fathertime]

I don't know if I need to be more empathetic or stringent about this conduct

Maybe you should considering doing what you feel like doing, and forget about what you "Need" to do.  If you want o help then help, if you don't want to help then don't!

Fathertime!

[mudd]

From my own experiences of girls asking for money, all from Medellin sad to say. , if I felt that they actually really needed it, and were not trying to fleece me or get easy money from some unsuspecting gringo, I would give a little, with conditions of course. Out of 4 girls in Medellin who asked for money, I only gave it to one, and her reason was because she just started a new job, and she had to pay for schooling and she didn’t have the money at the time of when it was due. I actually had someone call the school and verify the amount and when it was due, so I know she wasn’t just trying to get easy money.  She has been paying it back slowly which I expected, but as least she makes the effort, the other 3 could not back up their reasons for needing the money and were just looking to get some free $$$ out  of a foreigner.

[soltero]

Asking for money is inappropriate. If you wish to be sympathetic, place a concerned look on your face and say, "Que lastima" or "Pobrecita", or "Son los caminos de la vida, pues..." and shake your head. If the person is a campesino then end with spitting on the ground.

Then change the subject!

If a person anywhere directly asks you for money and you are not related, then they think you are a fool and have no respect for you.

[sean126]

MA,

I'd give two different responses based on two different situations.  You, as an agency owner, should not allow it while the men are using your services.  If the men complain, it would be a legitimate complaint I would think.  I wouldn't put up with it in America and I certainly don't want to go to another country looking for love, use a service and have to hear about "I need..." when I'm looking for love.  It'd be different if I was on a church missionary trip and my goal and purpose was to help people.

If your asking from a regular guy perspective....I wouldn't let gullibility, compassion and being naive over rule common sense. I mean...if your main purpose in meeting women is to find true, everlasting love then you don't want your first few dates to be centered around her softening you up for the question of a couple hundred dollars. 

A need is not an excuse for lack of good manners and lack of sincerity. 

I'm sure she sincerely needs money, but if she's acting like she sincerely cares about you to get it...then that changes the whole thing.  That's what I can't stand.  I don't mind someone walking up to me on the street asking for money, but to put on a show for me just makes me angry and it insults me, no matter who they are or in how dire straights they are.  If she sincerely cared about me and I felt the same way...then they wouldn't have to ask me.  Many times, I think women show their cards too soon when they are trying to...basically lie to you just to get money.  I'd be much more willing to help someone sitting on the street with a cup in their hand than I would a woman who thinks just because we went out a few times that it's ok to ask me to give her money just because she thinks I'll do it.   

[Calipro]

If a person anywhere directly asks you for money and you are not related, then they think you are a fool and have no respect for you.

That is exactly right.....any woman that comes right out and asks for money doesn't care about you or give a damn what you think of them.

[markanthony7]

In my own personal experience with the young lady I am involved with, she asked me for money once but it was the way she asked me that I did not like , instead of just asking and saying I need money, which I already knew she tried to con it out of me with a hard luck story, which I did not appreciate, we argued about it and through communication we were able to resolve the issue but again is this something that is just indicative of the culture they come from? away of life and survival? can they rehabilitated with counseling and communication? or our they damaged goods, irreparably damaged?, is this mentality pervasive and a relationship red flag? or should it be overlooked and minimized in comparison to more weighty moral and character issues?

[markanthony7]

Sean you make a lot of valid points and I agree with a lot of what you said, but there is a nagging question in my mind about these women and these types of various situations, when I was in ministry we had a saying called "situational ethics" because of the impoverished background they are subjected too, does this negatively modify their character and behaviour?, I always wounder if I was influenced and subject too the type of extreme economical disadvantage they are involuntarily subjected too against their will, would I be any better of a person?, we were all fortunate to be born in America were there is wealth and opportunity and this is why I refrain from being overtly judgmental, "judge ye not lest you be judged" , what if underneath the veiner of that one negative caracther flaw there is a gem or diamond of a person?, but more important, if she was taken out of her impoverished life and situation and given opportunity and professionailism would this eraticate this seemingly inexcusable deficiency in her personality? a good illustration would be the movie "Trading Places" with Dan Akaroyd and Eddie Murphy

[soltero]

In my own personal experience with the young lady I am involved with, she asked me for money once but it was the way she asked me that I did not like , instead of just asking and saying I need money, which I already knew she tried to con it out of me with a hard luck story, which I did not appreciate, we argued about it and through communication we were able to resolve the issue but again is this something that is just indicative of the culture they come from? away of life and survival? can they rehabilitated with counseling and communication? or our they damaged goods, irreparably damaged?, is this mentality pervasive and a relationship red flag? or should it be overlooked and minimized in comparison to more weighty moral and character issues?

Mark, some things involve cultural differences, and some things are just about character. I would give my novia anything because she would never stoop to asking me straight out to give her money and never has. She has too much pride for that. We met in 2005, and I was in Cali for 3 months that summer. When I got back, I was looking for a job as I quit my other to spend the summer in Cali. I was not hurting, but I was not pulling in any cash at that time either. She did not care, and was very encouraging. That endeared her to me very much. She has since had hard times of her own, and we would discuss them, but she didn't ask me to help her and when I offered would say "No preocupes". Sometimes I would send her a little something anyway because I know she would never ask.

If you are being asked for money, you are being played. If you are in a relationship it is expected that you help out, but asking directly for cash is not cool no matter where you are regardless of the culture. There may be situations where the person is desperate, and that is why they are trying to use you. Sad, but how is that your problem?

Anyone who asks for money is trying to use you for a come up. The sooner they ask, the less they think of you.

[Ray]

In my own personal experience with the young lady I am involved with, she asked me for money once but it was the way she asked me that I did not like , instead of just asking and saying I need money, which I already knew she tried to con it out of me with a hard luck story, which I did not appreciate, we argued about it and through communication we were able to resolve the issue but again is this something that is just indicative of the culture they come from? away of life and survival? can they rehabilitated with counseling and communication? or our they damaged goods, irreparably damaged?, is this mentality pervasive and a relationship red flag? or should it be overlooked and minimized in comparison to more weighty moral and character issues?

Rehabilitated with counseling and communication??? You're joking, right?

I'm sorry Mark, but IMO that has to be THE most stupid question I have ever seen on this forum.

The ONLY logical response to a lady who tries to con you out of money is to dump her sorry ass immediately, if not sooner...

[bad40]

it appears from this post and others i've seen that a few of the women featured on your website may be in dire need of assistance. i hope that these young ladies are removed in a timely manner.

i agree with soltero... if she asks for money, she is playing a game. she will survive without the help she requests. that is life.. all of us have for forgo things becuase we cant afford it. why should they be any different. principle is important for all of us. give what you want... but do it because you want to, NOT because you are asked.

[markanthony7]

First of all I have not gravitated to one side or the other, my objective is to get as much collective information on this subject as possible so I can make educated and informed decisions in the future

1. Every rose has its thorn ,from this perspective, you can draw an inference that yes they are beautiful, affectionate, loyal, traditional, family oriented, etc; but should they be afforded right to have some imperfections?, is this a serious deficiency in caracther?, a deal breaker?, should you throw the baby out with the bath water?, should an infraction of this nature be dealt with strictly?, should you take into consideration her impoverishment?, in Colombia if you can find a job, the average wage is $125 a month, they don't have welfare, food stamps, section 8, minimum wage, social security, unemployment benefits, union protection, job security, child support, domestic violence, sex discrimination to ensure a fair wage, college grants, etc; 

[soltero]

Why do you keep asking the same question? 

[markanthony7]

Because I am seeking expounded answers and amplification, especially from the stand point of sexual discrimintion and impoverishment, I am not certain if these various issues are partially excusable and possibly corrective or do they reveal a caracther flaw that is of a reprobate or debauchery, what I am asking if it is imaginable what if we were subjected to poverty and in opportunity or is this a poor excuse, that was my objective with the "trading places illustration or if the shoe was on the other foot

[jm21-2]

Some things involve cultural differences, and some things are just about character. I would give my novia anything because she would never stoop to asking me straight out to give her money and never has. She has too much pride for that.

The ONLY logical response to a lady who tries to con you out of money is to dump her sorry ass immediately, if not sooner...

I think...enough said. Have you never had any poor friends or something MA? I have friends who have literally starved here in the USA because they were out of money and had too much pride to even consider things like food stamps. [EDIT: not that they died or anything, but for a few days until the next paycheck arrived or whatever...why they didn't just stock up on top ramen or something I have no clue] I would be immediately suspect of _ANY_ person asking for handouts directly or indirectly. Doesn't matter where they're from.

[michaelb]

There used to be a guy on the radio, Bruce Somebodyorother (he may still be on, just not in my market anymore, I don't know). He had a talk show where people called in and he gave them financial and/or common sense type advice about running small business, managing their household budget, buying and selling real estate, being a landlord, stuff like that. Often people asked him about whatever pie in the sky get rich scheme they were about to get suckered into. He would tell them that it wouldn't work. If they pressed, he would tell them WHY it wouldn't work, and they would continue "Well, yeah, but blah, blah, blah and the guy said blah blah....." and the host would reply "OK, Mark, if you WANT to believe, then I guess there's nothing I can say to change your mind".---end of call.

[Jeff S]

[EDIT: not that they died or anything, but for a few days until the next paycheck arrived or whatever...why they didn't just stock up on top ramen or something I have no clue]

In college I kept a crab trap baited at all times, hanging off the rail of a boat I lived on for free in Morro Bay. In the days it filled up with rock crabs and surfperch got caught in it at night, which I filleted and used the centers for more crab bait. If push came to shove could catch enough jacksmelt and jack mackerel any evening to make a meal using mussels I could pull off from under the dock and fish under lights. Add prickly pears and miners lettuce and I was good to go for free. Low tide days I was digging clams, too, and I knew where a stash of legal black abalone could be had with some work.

[JamesDonut]

I think its good to talk about these things and think them through.  It is a legitimate question, because we have all asked it before we became more astute.  And who knows how many newbies are reading to gain knowledge.  So here are my 2 cents worth:

Since you mentioned "situational ethics" I'll comment on that.  There are many ways one can help and give aid to those less fortunate.  Some of these things may involve the peace corps, church missions or the red cross to name just a few.  People in these organizations are trained to spot those who are most in need and then to fulfill said needs. 

On the other hand, the guys on this board and those who use agencies, have a different goal and purpose in mind.  That goal is to find a compatible life long companion.  They are not trained to spot those who are in most in need.    In fact they don't know the difference between a gold digger and someone who is truly sincere.  You could even go one step further and put forth the argument that it would be unethical to give money out blindly, gold digger or sincere. If that person is a gold digger you are encouraging this predatory behavior to continue into the future.  Now  even if the person is truly in need of help, said american probably won't be around in the future to continue to give help.  This encourages the person to beg instead of learning to "fish."

Marriage is a serious and long term commitment.  People on this board and others who use agencies have to make very careful and well thought out decisions.  Figuring out whether a future bride is sincere and in love with you instead of your wallet is complicated enough.  It is only smart and ethical to concentrate your efforts on those girls that want to work on a relationship, instead of those who ask for money.   

Another important note is that the agencies purpose is to put couples together.  It should not be a place for those girls in need to seek monetary or spiritual help.  It is the agencies job to filter out those that are there for reasons other than to find a lifelong companion.  If they don't they are doing a grave disservice to their customers and the girls who sign up at the agency.  In other words it is unethical to let those that ask for money hang around, when they may find better help elsewhere.  And you will save some poor gringo a lot of unnecessary headaches.           

[markanthony7]

micahelb, I don't think its a question about changing my mind , this is what this discussion is about, now I am some what indifferent and this is why I am presenting this argument for discussion, right now I am in Cartagena putting together Amor De Cartagena Fall 2007, I am up close and personal with many of the young ladies that participate in our agency and I see the pain and decimation caused by poverty, their plight and sufferage I would not wish on my worst enemy that being my ex-wfe and her blood sucking lawyer

[markanthony7]

James Dougnut, my question is this if a young lady inherited a bad habit because she is a product of her impoverished culture, is there a possibility that if she were given the opportunity in a normal setting with some of the privileges and opportunities that we are a custom too, would this normalize her like we are? and the reciprocal question what if we were subject to this type of intense poverty would we fare any better than them?, we might be worse! its easy to sit back and judge from America where we have all the comforts and conveniences, but the type of poverty that these people are subject too is traumatic!!! but I wounder that altough some of these women do these things underneath the negative implications associated with this indiscretion is there a pearl of a beautiful women

[David]

*Enter David stage left*

I have a story for you all.

So last year, my Dad said to me "You like the hispanic women, why not search for one that's closer?" So I looked at an agencies site, bought some addresses. Out of the 13 I bought, only one came to a decent fruition (bare in mind I didn't write all of them).

(This story is condensed as it spans 1.5 years)

Background:
The one who wrote back had already lived in the states! She spoke almost perfect english, no dialect! She was hot! But she had a child. I wasn't going to let it stop me, and decided to get to know her for her. She really didn't like how I would hear her laugh on the other end of the phone with other men and how I would get jealous. She then ended our "relationship" or "communications." After three months, she contacted me again, and I decided it was ok to talk, and that she missed me. Whether or not she was with other guys, I can't proove. The relationship then ended again after I stopped writing. She didn't even bother to write and say "where did ya go?" I ended it, because I was interested in someone else.

Current:
She eventually wrote me "on accident" in a group email. I sent an email to her. We started talking again (now in 07). She was jumping from job to job, and eventually landed where she didn't have one. She was broke, starving, her dad wasn't helping, nor her mom, sister (who are both living in Texas). Now I already knew she wanted to come back to the USA, not for her, but to give her daughter better opportunities. She didn't hide it. Obviously she wanted a decent guy too. I'm 2-3 years her junior. Anyway, I sent her 100.00 to help. She thanked me, and no she never asked for it, but the constant wailing and moaning about how bad it was made it obvious she desired help. But she really didn't seem to care about me, only asking "when" I was going to come and visit. I ignored it as I was thinking she was just desperate in her situation and wanted OUT of Colombia. So the situation got worse. One time we were speaking and she just started crying! I felt really bad, and so I sent her another 100. It continued to get worse. Her Dad sold the computer, and was in the process of selling the car. She finally found a job, making 10 dollars a day working in a bar for a friend of hers. I kept writing and calling, but she was never there. Her Dad wasn't happy to hear from me the last time I called, and she hasn't writen to me since. I worry about her, and wonder what is going on. Her letters were never long, just one or two sentences. She wasn't interested in getting to know me, just when I was going to visit. I think she was using me, but I can't be sure.

For me, doing the right thing, whether being used or not, is more important. My conciousness rests well knowing I helped out, even if the person used me, at least it helped them out. If I'm a fool, I don't care. What's 200 dollars in span of my lifetime? I'm going to make more money than they could dream of.

[JamesDonut]

James Dougnut, my question is this if a young lady inherited a bad habit because she is a product of her impoverished culture, is there a possibility that if she were given the opportunity in a normal setting with some of the privileges and opportunities that we are a custom too, would this normalize her like we are? and the reciprocal question what if we were subject to this type of intense poverty would we fare any better than them?, we might be worse! its easy to sit back and judge from America where we have all the comforts and conveniences, but the type of poverty that these people are subject too is traumatic!!! but I wounder that altough some of these women do these things underneath the negative implications associated with this indiscretion is there a pearl of a beautiful women

Mark, and its Donut by the way , I can see where your coming from.  But perhaps you missed my point.  There are better ways to help out than just giving out cold hard cash.  I mentioned a few of those ways in my post above.  I am not judging them by saying that there is a better way to help out.   

     

[jm21-2]

Hmmm...what's next...searching for a hooker with a golden heart?

There's a quote from the Asian board that goes something like "you can take the girl out of the bar, but you can't take the bar out of the girl," I believe promulgated by William3d....I think the same concept applies here. You can bring the girl up to a better lifestyle, but chances are she's not going to unlearn the habits from her previous one. And you have to wonder whether she was really forced into the lifestyle, or thought it was an easy way out...or whether the bad traits associated with that lifestyle were instilled in her by the lifestyle, or whether she adopted that lifestyle because she already had those bad traits...

To take some advice from Jeff S, don't look for a project. If a girl has quesitonable qualities, move on. Hopefully I am applying the advice correctly in this situation.

If you feel bad about a girl's situation, give her a few bucks to get by, buy her a meal, whatever...but don't marry her.