..it is SO much safer to live in the USA than in Colombia....

[daytrader]

...yes, I am sure it is...however, this link gives a first person account of a young professional guy living in idyllic St. Petersburg, Florida (he usually hears gunfire in his neighborhood!).   Can't say that happens in my travels to Bogota or Cali, forum-dudes! 

Some judge just ordered 300 convicts to be released from the Pinellas Jail because it is full....Oh my!  Maybe I SHOULD move to SA soon! 

Selected pull quotes below...this is suprisingly well written for a typical liberal Anti-American daily newspaper; 

"...I am young, age 25. To afford my first home, I bought a house west of Tropicana Field in Palmetto Park, which I knew had its share of crime. To stretch my pennies, I decided that despite knowing the neighborhood wasn't secure I could wait several months to install an expensive security alarm.

Not even two months later, my home was burglarized while I was at work. My roommate who worked nights was home sleeping.

...Within months, I was reeling from another incident. Good friends of mine - a real estate agent who coordinates the neighborhood crime watch and his partner - woke one night to chunks of concrete being hurled through their kitchen window. Panicked, the real estate agent, another reluctant gun owner, emptied his 9mm into his back yard and garage. No one was hit, but the assailants who had jumped his fence, fled.

....Another neighbor - also a crime watch coordinator - had his house firebombed. We were caught in a neighborhood battle between drug dealers and people who wanted to clean up the neighborhood.

...Every single time I have expressed concern for my personal safety, the police response was the same: Buy a gun and let your neighbors know you're not afraid to use it.


...Then another one of the new residents was robbed and assaulted in the alleyway behind my home as he cut through an abandoned lot next to mine.

...The reality is, my neighborhood is a rare affordable option for myself and many others. And if residents willing to invest in their communities abandon these areas, the criminals who are accustomed to controlling these places win. A small minority of residents has been able to intimidate others, who hide in their homes. Those who can afford to, move at the first opportunity."


Also suggest reading the reader comments at the bottom of the article. 

link below to the St. Pete Times  Rag...

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/04/22/Opinion/I_bought_a_gun.shtml

My comment to this:  This is a MAJOR American City in a really desirable are of the USA....yet it is the Wild West.  Yeah, we need more gun control!  If so, I'm packing up and heading to SA!

DayTrader

[watson]

Of the 62 nations surveyed as to murder rates, Colombia has the highest per capita.  The United States is twenty-fourth with a rate approximately 1/15th that of Colombia.  You can verify this here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

These statistics are just that--they represent the chance of being murdered per 1000 people.

Your individual chance of being murdered is likely very different from the average.  What part of a city you are in, what behaviors you engage in (drug usage versus helping old ladies across the street), your sex and age all make the chance greater or lesser than the average.  But the average is still a useful number.   

Here the actual death tolls show that one is approximately 15 times as likely to be murdered in Colombia than in the U.S.

Colombia is no doubt filled with wonderful people and definitely has some of the world's finest ladies. 

Going there remains a viable option for the man in pursuit of a wife or a retirement home.

But we should do so fully informed -- and not let anecdotal (non-scientific) reports inform our decisions.  Facts should make us cautious, not deter us.

Dr. Watson

[papi]

Of the 62 nations surveyed as to murder rates, Colombia has the highest per capita. The United States is twenty-fourth with a rate approximately 1/15th that of Colombia.  You can verify this here:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

These statistics are just that--they represent the chance of being murdered per 1000 people.

Your individual chance of being murdered is likely very different from the average.  What part of a city you are in, what behaviors you engage in (drug usage versus helping old ladies across the street), your sex and age all make the chance greater or lesser than the average.  But the average is still a useful number.   

Here the actual death tolls show that one is approximately 15 times as likely to be murdered in Colombia than in the U.S.

Colombia is no doubt filled with wonderful people and definitely has some of the world's finest ladies.

Going there remains a viable option for the man in pursuit of a wife or a retirement home.

But we should do so fully informed -- and not let anecdotal (non-scientific) reports inform our decisions.  Facts should make us cautious, not deter us.

Dr. Watson

Bravo!

[daytrader]

...tell me something I don't know, Dr. Watson...(please re-read the first sentence of my post).


....Anecdotal evidence is pretty important forum readers....my anecdotal evidence includes NO burglaries, no murders, no breaking and entering in any of my stays in Colombia.  Yeah, be REAL careful and don't put yourself in high risk situations for sure.  It used to be different, but now certain parts of America are "no go zones" and the Rule Of Law is ineffective. 

....If the 2nd Amendment is rendered moot in the USA (not likely in the near term), living here will be much more dangerous. 

...the point is that the American Dream continues to slip away from many of the younger generation that is trying to get ahead...for the first time in American History the younger generations are looking at an America that is less safe and less affordable; in many cases the American Dream is no longer attainable ($4 gasoline, $350,000 starter home, violent crime in the suburbs to the idyllic college campuses). 

....The gist of the two articles I posted is that the flight from America of the educated, moderate well to-do-crowd is multi-generational and may be draining America of some her best citizens.  America can't even build a competitive automobile, the Japs & Koreans are  designing  good quality products AND building them in the USA when American companies refuse to be competitive. 

...and dealing in specifics (not Dr. Watson's generalities), in Cali there were 200,000 people lawfully marching for democracy and capitalism after the bombing at the police station a few weeks ago -  this is a powerful signal that FARC is out of step and doesn't really have  any power in Cali.  I can't remember the number, maybe close to a million demonstrated in Bogota about 5 years ago or so after someone was murdered. 

...Papi, are you saying "bravo" to all the murders committed in Colombia?  or maybe in the USA?  I don't know, please clarify what you are bravo-ing.   

DayTrader

[papi]

...Papi, are you saying "bravo" to all the murders committed in Colombia?  or maybe in the USA?  I don't know, please clarify what you are bravo-ing.   

i am "bravo-ing" a voice of intelligence regarding colombia. However, i am delighted to see you are picking up some spanish

[daytrader]

i am "bravo-ing" a voice of intelligence regarding colombia.

Actually, Dr. Watson's comments are good and timely but not relating to this thread.  Dr. Watson's comments are regurgitating "aggregate" data when specific data relating to Europeans and Americans is germane. 

How many Americans and Europeans comprise the Colombian murder rate?  That would be a relevant post and very useful information.   Taking aggregate data of mostly drug/civil war participants killing off other drug/civil war participants is not relevant here. 

You add to your life expectancy in Colombia or Panama by NOT setting up a business there and then owing people a bunch of money when it goes bust or NOT buying some real estate through a Panama real estate broker and finding out that the broker took your money and then sold the real estate to someone else.  I would recommend keeping your business deals on American soil and having a low profile overseas. 

For those that have not visited major cities in Colombia, people have BARS on almost all their windows.  That is for an obvious reason, so be advised.  People that have money live in gated communities and high rises protected by 2 or more layers of security (plus physical barriers) with wonderful views of the mountains and nice country clubs you can freely travel to outside of Cali, for instance. 

I repeatedly asked if there were any gurrellias in the mountains (since I was at some nice resorts in the mountains) and the answer was that the security has really made the areas safe.  In the past, when troops would comb the area then leave, the bad guys would come down and commit mayhem in the outskirts of Cali.  I saw multiple squads (5 to 10 troops armed to the teeth) visible outside of Cali.  Inside Cali in good neighborhoods I felt safer than being in St. Petersburg Florida, THAT'S for sure. 

Didn't hear or see of any carjackings while there, and haven't read any reports online. My driver/interpreter drives full time between cities around Cali and would not do so (his wife would raise hell that's for sure!) if there were any danger.   

Please post specifics relating to gringos, gentlemen, not generalities, por favor.  If anyone has more anecdotal experiences in Colombia or elsewhere please feel free to add them, the more first hand info the better! 

DayTrader

[utopiacowboy]

I regularly go into the West Side of San Antonio. It's definitely the most dangerous part of the city with the highest crime rate. Nothing has ever happened to me there but it doesn't change the fact that it's a lot more dangerous than other parts of the city. If I start thinking that it's "safe" because I haven't had any mishaps until now, that will almost ensure that something happens to me. In Colombia, as in San Antonio's West Side, you've got to keep your guard up and be very careful.

[papi]

DT, there was a huge bomb that went off in cali a couple weeks ago not to mention the recent murder of an American attorney by sicarios. This is everyday stuff in colombia - not so much so in St Pete. If you want to downplay or somehow rationalize the dangers, so be it. You are over 21

[daytrader]

DT, there was a huge bomb that went off in cali a couple weeks ago

Glad to see you are only one or two pages behind on this thread, Papi.  That's why the 200,000 people marched last Sunday (I think that was the day) against the bombing of the police station in the middle of the night when hardly anyone was around (some poor slob got it when he was driving by the police station, though).

I'll wait a while till you get up to speed.  The recent killings of the American in Cali and in Panama were likely directly related to their past business deals gone bad.  I was in Cali when the little micro-bomb went off at ChipeChapa  last November.  I'm not deterred, nor do I lack intelligence about the matter. 

Like Utopia Cowboy states, if you are already street smart around big American cities, you should do ok in certain urban areas of Panama and Colombia.  Obviously be careful but don't be paranoid, just take precautions and don't look like a tourist unless you have your novia's 6 ft tall brother in law nearby. 

DayTrader

[Dan Las Vegas]

I can only speak from my limited personal experience in Colombia, two trips to Medellin where I am currently at the moment. While I feel safe for the most part in Medellin, I am very careful about where I go and try to keep as low a profile as possible. Having lived in the middle east for some time, Medellin seems to be relatively quiet in comparison. It would be interesting to know the number of non colombians that have been killed in those statistics that were quoted.

Both Watson and Daytrader bring up good points regarding the relative safety of Colombia.  Thank you both for your observations.

[utopiacowboy]

I lost the url but the Medellin city government web site had a section which broke down homicides by barrio. My wife's barrio has not had a murder this year nor last year. The various parts of Poblado were also pretty safe. OTOH, there were other barrios that had several murders every month. It was an interesting site - I need to find it again.

[daytrader]

That would be good info UT, hope you find it.  Also, the accompanying "gringo column" (number & % of gringos as a victim of all barrio crime) would be helpful as well. 

DayTrader

[daytrader]

murders per 100,000 comparison in the 'safe' USA vs Colombia

60 --- Aggregate # of entire country of Colombia (includes civil/drug war deaths in rural areas)
36 --- Oakland, CA
30 --- Philadelphia, PA

Living in some major American cities, you only cut your risk 50% compared to living in a near Second World country with two competing militias fighting a third militia, the Colombian Army.  I could have picked the two top American cities regarding murder rates, instead I picked two in the middle of the Top Ten. 


DayTrader

[papi]

you can look at all the stats you want. Bottom line, Colombia is one of the most dangerous countries on the planet. They have made tremendous improvement in security and I have the highest respect for the many members of the armed forces I have met in colombia including those crippled by the civil war, but I don't hold any illusions of something it is not

[flagringo]

Bottom line, Colombia is one of the most dangerous countries on the planet

So, the highest murder rate American cities are also some of the 'most dangerous areas on the planet'...right? 



DayTrader/aka Flagringo

[papi]

well, i am from detroit. i would not go walk 8 mile alone after dark. lets try and use some common sense here. But if you want to argue that colombia is not dangerous, like i said before - you are over 21. Yet I can tell you that almost everyone i have met there has a story of violence that has touched their friends or family

[daytrader]

But if you want to argue that colombia is not dangerous,

Papi, please show me where I wrote those words/made that statement...


DayTrader

[sean126]

DT,

correct me if I'm wrong....but what your saying is, if both places are about as equally dangerous then what difference does it make where you live?

Makes sense to me.  Comparing a city here and a city there, I can see your point.  Perhaps people are focusing on the comparisons of the countries, overall.

Maybe it's the media coverage of the cartels and rebels appearing more ruthless and using bombs, kidnapping, ect..?  I don't know.  Murder is murder....I guess it's the total of all the different types of dangers in comparison?

But I can see your point though.

[daytrader]

The point I'm trying to make Sean is that America has some major problems; it used to be there was a clear difference between a country like Colombia and the USA...now the differences are getting blurred in regards to crime....in this case, it's the difference between falling out of a 100 story window to the ground or falling from a 50 story window to the ground...the net effect is, Colombia is not such a bad place FOR GRINGOS if you have to put up with the 3rd World status of many areas of the USA. 

The statistics for Colombia do not differentiate between indigenous and europeans/westerners,...thus the stats are likely meaningless if one takes precautions and don't habitually stiff Colombian business partners thousands of dollars or catch them in real estate fraud. 

Combined with the skyrocketing cost of housing/transportation etc. in the USA, Colombia or Panama might not be a bad place to hang your hat a fair amount of the time.  Keep a USA mailing address, but one could be happy anc ontent 6 or more months of the year in a Latin American country. 


DayTrader

[daytrader]

Sean -- Regarding kidnapping, there was a new State Department advisory in Mexico this past week...it's very dangerous around the US/Mexican border towns -- lots of kidnappings and murders relating to human trafficing and drugs - Americans (particularly journalists) should avoid the area.  In the last year, Mexican tourist destinations have been plagued by kidnappings, carjackings and murders of foreigners-- the State Department has been warning travelers for some time. 

I really don't get that feeling in my travels around Colombia that things are coming apart at the seams...I see a lot of optimism and positive signs that people really want to enter "the first World".  The Rule Of Law and the economy are making big strides down there....hopefully the latest scandals in the present government won't have a negative affect to this. 

You need to keep up your guard in the USA ...yes the odds are better, but there have been some horrific incidents since I've been in the Miami area just in the past couple weeks....it cuts across all geographic, socio-economic lines...people are getting bumped off for no rhyme or reason almost daily in the Miami-Lauderdale area it seems. 

DayTrader

[sean126]

I was saying you bring up a good point.   and you brought up some more. 

[william3rd]

It really isnt safe anywhere. THere are large areas of LA-LOS ANGELES- where you dont want to go at night. I stopped at a liquor store near LAX on my way home last Friday.

Huge floodlamps all over the lot. Barbed wire lining the roof. Bars across all of the windows. A fortified bullet-proof emplacement ( 2-inch thick glass) around the cashier with an armored door and including an L-shaped window so that the cashier would never be in the line of fire.

Sure is great being home. . . . .

[papi]

DT, i give up. Here is my suggestion since colombia is so safe: go to Target and buy a T shirt with one of their logos....then match that with a hat featuring an American flag...wear shorts, black socks and sandals...finally paste a $100 bill to your forehead. Next, walk down sexta from 15th street to Chipi and call me if you make it to the mall. I will then forever compare colombia with kansas going forward

[sean126]

William,
You think that's bad....try telling my wife she can't buy something at Macy's Dept. Store when they are having a sell.  Wow, I need barbed wire around ME!

[Parlay Rey]

The point I'm trying to make Sean is that America has some major problems; it used to be there was a clear difference between a country like Colombia and the USA...now the differences are getting blurred in regards to crime....in this case, it's the difference between falling out of a 100 story window to the ground or falling from a 50 story window to the ground...the net effect is, Colombia is not such a bad place FOR GRINGOS if you have to put up with the 3rd World status of many areas of the USA. 

The statistics for Colombia do not differentiate between indigenous and europeans/westerners,...thus the stats are likely meaningless if one takes precautions and don't habitually stiff Colombian business partners thousands of dollars or catch them in real estate fraud. 

Combined with the skyrocketing cost of housing/transportation etc. in the USA, Colombia or Panama might not be a bad place to hang your hat a fair amount of the time.  Keep a USA mailing address, but one could be happy anc ontent 6 or more months of the year in a Latin American country. 


DayTrader

good point. i'm almost 40, and my prime earning years here in the states are still ahead of me but definitely view things long term and from the big picture perspective.