Religion

[papi]

The question of religion which came up in a recent post is an issue. The majority are catholics. However, it has never been much of an issue for me. Here was a chat i had about it today....there are misconceptions and issues to address but again nothing that is a show stopper in my view, para nada:

Chica: eres judio
Papi: si
Chica: ummm osea que te gustan varias mujeres a la vez
Chica: por eso no me gusta
Papi: busco para una novia
Chica: no varias
Papi: no, solomente 1
Chica: pero eso no son los judios
Papi: si los judios son fiel
Papi: algunas si algunas no
Chica: ah, segun mi informacion, los judios tienen varias
Papi: no amor, nosotros son los mismo
Chica: ah bien
Chica: pero cuando te cases en que religion te casaras
Chica: yo soy catolica
Papi: buena pregunta
Papi: me gusta la dos, con un padre y rabino

[el_ruso]

Frankly, I have chatted with many many girls, and I think only a couple cared to ask me my religion or background.  If a girl talks religion early on it is a sign IMO that she is religious.  Which is not good if her religion is different from yours, or if you are not religious yourself.

As I have said elsewhere, I am not religious, and neither insist nor expect that the girl actually converts to my religion.  But I do want the wedding done in a way that conforms to my traditions.  And obviously it will conflict with the girl's traditions.  I further doubt that you could get a rabbi in Colombia to officiate with the priest - synagogues in Colombia tend to be very conservative as far as I know.  Do they even allow mixed ceremonies over there?  And wedding in US is not realistic: her family and friends will likely not get visas, and if they do paying for their transport (which will be unavoidable) will be very expensive.

I frankly wish I could skip the whole wedding thing, but I realize it will probably not be possible.  I will not even be able to convince her to postpone it until "we have more money" since weddings are pretty cheap over there  .  Well, I like to deal with problems as they arise, rather than worry about them before they happen.

[papi]

well, yu could get married in the USA following a K1 visa but i guess your chica is not hip on that. some are, others are not

[el_ruso]

Paps,

I have not yet talked to the girl about where she wants to get married.  Technically, I have not even proposed yet.

as I have mentioned in the original post, the logistics of marriage in US are not good.  Most likely most of her family and friends will not get visas.  To even get them they would have to travel to Bogota and pay a fee to the embassy.  And even if they get visas, most likely I will have to pay for their tickets to Miami, and room and board.  And the whole ceremony thing is cheaper in Colombia, a lot cheaper.

However, it will be fun seeing my parents come to Colombia    That will an unforgettable experience. 

[papi]

well, if you get serious - you might look into the pros and cons of the K1 vs the K3. You might decide a K3 is not a good option these days. I don't know...maybe one of our legal staff can comment on the state of the union

[jediknight]

it was easier and cheaper to fly my parents to colombia for our wedding than bringing her family here. also, you can have the most spectacular wedding in colombia for much much less.  my wifes family wouldn't have liked her to come here on a K1, so getting married in colombia was always the way to go.
JK

[sean126]

My wife and I had a Pre-Wedding ceremony and reception in Barranquilla for all of her friends and family.  About 165 people came.  She had a priest come and bless the rings and do a short ceremony.  It was just like a wedding, except without the actual vows.  It was the best party I've ever been to.  Her brother knows alot of people in different fields and I think I paid about $1500 for everything, so I saved a TON of money....the hall for 6 hours, priest, decorations, band (for 5 hours), GOOD food and good whiskey for 165 people.
Then when we came back to the states, we had a small (real) wedding in a chapel and a small reception for my family and close friends.  We decided beforehand to have the bigger wedding in Colombia.

I think that is a good idea for anyone who's wanting to let her family and friends see her get married....without technically getting married.     

[el_ruso]

Sean,

thanks for sharing the idea.  I would NOT do it though.  It would be unthinkable for me to have a wedding with my girl (or any other girl) if her mother and sisters and a couple of her best friends would not be there.  Women dream about weddings, about celebrating this day with their family and close friends, and I want very much that she will cherish the memory of the event with her loved ones.  Also I would imagine it will give a great pain to her mother not to witness the wedding of her daughter.

"pre-wedding" is not a wedding.  she will know it is not a real wedding, her mother will know it is not a real wedding.  I honestly would happily forego the whole thing - given the logistical difficulties, costs, and religious differences, but I know the girl well enough.  And I am certain she will be very unhappy with such turn of events, as most women would be IMO.  And I want her to be happy.

[sean126]

Correction.....it's a good idea for someone doing a K-1 instead of opting to marry in Colombia.  

Case in point....my buddy got married in Colombia, started the visa a few weeks later....and it turns out that she was a bad person.  Then he had to go through the added expense of getting a divorce and then it almost got ugly when she tried to get $10,000 out of him.  True...this won't happen to everyone and probably not even alot of times, but it can and does happen.

My idea was for people who'd rather do the K-1 route.  It's not for everyone, but I'm sure MOST women wouldn't be against it.  That's kind of a huge opinion to make, maybe half.  Like I said, I gave her a choice of a big wedding here or a Big pre-wedding party there because we had already filed the K-1.   I wanted to make sure she would begin to adjust to America before we got married and quite honestly....it's NEVER a bad idea to have more time to be sure, considering the magnitude of the life changing event taking place (moving and the wedding).  It's not unheard of for women to be overcome with grief or depression once they get here and then want or demand to go back and I wanted her to be sure this was what she wanted.  No one really knows until they are actually "in" the situation.  
I am sure the mothers and fathers are more heart broken over their daughter leaving for good, rather than missing a technically "real" wedding day.  Not to mention she is Catholic and I am not....so I could not marry her in a church there anyway.... which is what I would think most, if not all, women dream about...a Church Wedding.    

For others reading...I wouldn't knock the idea so quickly.  The priest knew why we was REALLY there (to get married)...he even made an announcement during the blessing, and the family and friends knew why we was there.  True, it wasn't technically a "real" wedding because we couldn't recite our vows...but to EVERYONE, including the priest, it was a real wedding... in our hearts and minds.  Maybe my wife's family is unusual, uncaring and less loving than your girl's family is , but people cried and kept congratulating us.  For something that is as "unthinkable" as I did, many people talked about it for 8 or 9 months afterwards.

I'm sure your a much more loving and sensitive man towards your woman than I'll ever be towards mine.

[Ray]

I think that is a good idea for anyone who's wanting to let her family and friends see her get married....without technically getting married.

Sean, I must disagree with you on this point.

If you want to let her family and friends see her get married, then get married without the "fake wedding" BS. Then petition her for a visa as your spouse.

If you really can't stand to wait a few months longer for a spouse visa, then do the fiancée visa thing and marry her here. You can always go back later for a religious ceremony in her hometown.

But I would strongly recommend that you let your bride decide which way she wants to do it. If she really wants a wedding at home in a church, then do what it takes to make it happen and forget about saving a few months on the visa wait.

Another big consideration is the potential problems she can have at her visa interview or at her port of entry immigration processing. If they even suspect that she is married and using a fiancée visa, she can very possibly be denied a visa or entry into the country. Some folks get married and attempt to hide it so they can use the shorter fiancée visa but that is visa fraud and one of the things they are looking for. Even though you are not legally married on paper, the presence of "wedding ceremony" photos, a wedding band on her finger, or a simple slip of the tongue can trigger red flags for the consular officers or ICE inspectors. I know of one lady who inadvertently referred to her fiancé’s mother as her "mother-in-law" and almost got denied at her visa interview. Be very careful before having a “fake” wedding!

Getting her here "the fastest way possible" is not always a wise path to follow. It's better to discuss all the options with your future bride and decide together which visa option is right for you as a couple. If she wants a wedding at home, let her have it. It's one of the most important days in her life for most young ladies.

Ray

[jediknight]

ray, as always you speak the truth and make sense.
JK

[Ray]

...she is Catholic and I am not....so I could not marry her in a church there anyway....

Sean, that is not necessarily true. The Catholic Church does not require both parties to a wedding to be Catholic in order to marry in the Church.

The Church does not actively encourage "mixed marriages", but does not forbid them. In fact, many mixed couples (one Catholic, one not) are married in the Church all the time.

How much difficulty you are likely to run into is somewhat dependent on the policies of the local bishop, but it is definitely possible to have a Catholic wedding ceremony without your being required to convert or anything like that. She may have to make a promise to continue practicing her faith or “try” to raise her children as Catholics, but she doesn’t have to attempt to convert you down the road and you are definitely free to worship as you wish.

Ray

[Ray]

Sean,

Also, if your ceremony was not in a church, you didn't follow the prescribed sacramental ritual, and the priest really thought it was a “real” wedding, then perhaps he wasn’t a “real” priest. The Church does not allow weddings like that under normal circumstances and the priest should surely know that.

I only bring this up to clarify the Church policy as I understand it. I'm sure it was a truly meaningful and memorable occasion for you and your lady, but it was not a marriage, no matter what the priest thought.

Ray

[el_ruso]

Sean,

first of all, I did NOT intend to say or insinuate that you were not loving towards your wife.  I apologize if that could be somehow inferred from my reply to you.  I neither think so, nor wanted to say that.

I realize that marrying to a colombiana involves difficulties and compromises due to logistics and visa situation.  It is commendable that your wife was willing to make certain compromises to make your union possible, and you tried creative ways to make her family feel that they are a part to your union.

However, as I said:
1) it is a lot easier for Americans to travel to Colombia than for Colombians to travel to US.  That implies that my family and close friends will have a much easier time coming to Colombia than vice versa.
2) In my particular situation, my parents, much of my family and most of my friends don't live in Miami.  If they have to travel to my wedding anyway, they could go to Colombia just as well.
3) women usually dream (literally) about their wedding day, how they will be wed in front of their family and close friends.  I never dreamt about weddings.  I think most guys have not dreamt about it.  The wedding is a lot more important to women than it is to men.  So it should be done on the woman's terms - within reason of course.
4) I do actually think that wedding a woman without her parents being present, when it is possible to have them present, is wrong.  That is just my opinion.  I know if I had a daughter and some dude took her and married her without me being there, I would be extremely furious.
5) Why can't someone who invited the girl over on K-1 have a wedding in Colombia?  Just do a legal wedding in US to conform to visa requirements, and as soon as she has travel documents go with her to Colombia and do the actual wedding.  I am sure it would be a better option than the "pre-wedding".

[utopiacowboy]

We had a "real" wedding in Colombia with all her family and friends present and I wouldn't change a thing. Just today I caught her looking at our wedding album, three and a half years later! As for speed, the K-1 and the K-3 processing times are almost identical right now.

[sean126]

Ray,
OK, I'm a selfish person, but it worked for us and her family and before anyone else jumps on the bandwagon....Yes, we BOTH talked about it before hand.  "Pre-Wedding", "Fake Wedding", "Formal Going Away Party".....what ever you choose to call it, but her family got to say good bye and got to see us declare our love and our commitment to each other in public and then celebrated the fact.  I did it BEFORE she left, others may want to do it when she comes back....but either way, if your doing a k-1 visa like I did...it's the same thing, it's not THE wedding.  It's either a "Pre-Wedding" or a "Post Wedding" because your getting married in America.  I guess to get super technical, you would call it a "renewing of your vows" after you go back to her country.  I was specifically talking about the K-1 guys.  If someone wants to get married in Colombia...by all means, do it.  However, if someone gets married in America...without her friends and family then they only have two options....a Before or After thing.
 
I was definitely not trying to get her here the fastest way possible.  At the time K-1 and K-3 were about the same wait, with K-3's being a little quicker, if I remember correctly. In fact, I'm totally against the "quickest way possible" routes.  Theres too much at stake to rush into a marriage, especially before the woman even gets to her new country to make a better informed decision.


Wow Ray, for someone who's picking my post apart you didn't read it very well.....

 The priest knew why we was REALLY there (to get married)...he even made an announcement during the blessing, and the family and friends knew why we was there.  

so I saved a TON of money....the hall for 6 hours,

To better clarify for you....He said something to the effect of  "I am here to bless the rings of S. and P. , but everyone knows why we are here" and then he said some other things I can't remember.  But the priest was there to Bless the rings and not to perform a wedding.  Apparently it's different for Catholics, I've never heard of that until my wife told me and I said...sure, we will turn it into a wedding thing.

He had told us before that we couldn't have a Church wedding because I wasn't Catholic, that I would have to take those classes first.  I'm not Catholic, don't want to become one...so I wouldn't know if that's correct or not.  But yes, he was a real priest.  No, it wasn't in a Church as I have previously stated but a hall.

El Ruso,
I'm all for the traditional wedding stuff.  Doing what we are doing is a little different.  Again, for the guys who want to do a K-1...it's either a Pre-wedding (or going away party) or a Post wedding party.  Either way, it's the same thing if you get married in America.

Actually, my main goal was...and call me a selfish jerk if you want, but....I wanted to be sure that once she was here that she wouldn't get so depressed and home sick that she would need to go back.  She was adamant about being by my side, but really....no one can make a choice like that until they get here.  I wouldn't want her to stay when she's sad and depressed, but is only honoring her promise to me made before hand.

You brought up some good points...but
1.  I don't think the typical middle income, older american citizens who, more than likely, speak no spanish at all
are going to be all that hot for the idea of going to a notorious dangerous country like Colombia for a wedding.  It's one thing to pay $200 for a rt ticket across the country, it's another to pay a minimum of $800 for a ticket for just a few days and then have to buy a wedding gift on top of that.

2.  I agree, it's the woman's day...but I also agree that this is a different situation in the fact that she's basing her opinion and promises without knowing if she will be utterly miserable when she moves away from her family or not.  So, I think  the smart thing to do...to avoid head aches and heart aches down the road...is to wait and see when she gets here, but that's my opinion...some want to get married as soon as possible...but, what ever they think is best.

3.  I agree, a real wedding without her parents isn't good.  but if your doing a k-1 you have no option.

4.  If you have a legal wedding in America, which is "technically" a "real" wedding, then when you return to Colombia to exchange vows again it's a renewing of your vows....not a "real" wedding, which is no different than my pre-wedding party, in my opinion.

Again, I think everyone missed the whole point.....IF your doing a K-1 Visa and are NOT getting married in Colombia then a Pre or Post wedding party is the next best thing.

You guys just blew this every which-a-way out of proportion, you'd think I just commited murder or something for suggesting to have a big party for her family and friends....since they can't come to the "real wedding".  
LOLOLOL...please READ what I wrote.  

Let me re-phrase again since that idea didn't go over too well......Don't do a K-1 visa and have a big party for her family and friends...Instead do a K-3 Visa and get married in Colombia and then have a big party for YOUR family and friends (if they can't afford to come or won't come to Colombia for the real wedding).  
How's that people, better??

[papi]

Sean, in my opinion you are one together cat. I also hear where Ray is coming from. There are some important issues being addressed here that some of the newbies may not be fully familiar:

1. K1 vs K3, pros and cons
2. a "trial" period together, even though that is technically taboo with the authorities
3. keeping the i's dotted and t's crossed with respect to no pre-K1 weddings.

Anyone considering project MOB should be crystal clear on this stuff.

PS. cliff notes please!

[Ray]

I agree, a real wedding without her parents isn't good.  but if your doing a k-1 you have no option.

In fact you DO have an option. You can always cancel the K-1 and petition her for a CR-1/K-3.

Sean, I think you are looking at this thing all bass-ackwards. You don’t do the wedding to match the visa...you do the correct visa to match your wedding!

Step 1. Decide together which type of wedding is right for you.

Step 2. Petition her for the visa that matches your wedding plans.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying about what the priest thought of the ceremony. Doing a ring-blessing ceremony is one thing, but a wedding is entirely different. There are some ex-priests out there who will do whatever you want for a price and there are a few priests who don't follow Church rules.

For those guys who don't want to marry in a church, don't want their children raised as Catholics, are concerned about giving up their weekends so their spouse can worship in her church, etc.... do yourself a big favor and don't marry a Catholic. She may not be a very devout practitioner, but I wouldn't recommend making her chose between you and her religion. That might just come back to bite you in the butt later.

[el_ruso]

I would prefer a K1 over K3.  I think I have grown into loving the girl, but we have not lived together, and I want to be sure we will get along.  I sure hope we do.  But to avoid heartache K1 would be better.  I have not discussed this with her or her family yet of course, but that is what I'd like, and I think for good reasons.

Sean, I am not accusing you of anything, quite on the contrary.  If what you did has worked for you, and the girl was happy, that's great.  I just suggested that I would do things different.  Everyone is different, and has different needs, and has different circumstances.

To clarify my opinon regarding Sean's points:

1) Legal marriage (as in getting a license) is not a wedding.  Wedding is the actual ceremony.  Girls and their parents don't dream about getting the wedding license.

2) My parents do not speak spanish.  And her parents don't speak russian either.  But the marriage is joining of the families together, and I very much want my father to meet her mother, and vice versa.  Maybe they will not be able to have deep discussions, but it still has to be done.  And if my son was getting married to a great and wonderful girl, I would be thrilled no matter her nationality or race, and would insist to at least meet her family.  I don't know how strong this need is for Americans, but for my people this is something that is pretty much required and expected.

3) I really don't care for wedding gifts.  I wouldn't mind them of course, but they are not the purpose of the wedding.  I have a couple of uncles who are very wealthy, and have given very generous gifts to my cousins, but, since the girl obviously is not Jewish, more than likely this is not going to happen judging by the hints I have been given, regardless of the location of the ceremony.  But even though I am not a millionaire, I am not living in a box under the bridge, and I do have plates and silverware.  What I do care is to have people I care about to be with me on this special and happy day, and that will be the greatest gift I could ask for.  If the logistics of that mean I will forego more material gifts, so be it.

[el_ruso]

Ray,

I have not been married, and I have not been married to a catholic.  However, why does she has to chose between me and her faith?  I am not asking her to convert, or do something against her beliefs.  Regarding children, if they grow up and decide to be catholic, I might not be happy about it, but I want them to grow up intelligent and moral individuals who think for themselves.  I do want them to make a decision for themselves when they are old enough, and until then I do not want them to be subjected to any sort of ideology.  If I married a Jewish woman, I would feel the same way exactly. 

[papi]

Ruso, maybe i am missing something here...didn't you report earlier that you must have a wedding in colombia?....but now you are saying you want a k1. Sorry i just skimmed some of the long stuff but please clarify 

[sean126]

Ray....dude....I think those cartoons are getting to you.  
Fine, you know more than me about visa stuff...ok, people can change their visa status or what ever.  Who cares, thats not even the point.  

I wasn't looking at anything backwards....Get K-1 visa, get married in America.  what can't you understand about that?  So, I happened to want to throw a big elaborate party for her family and friends because they wouldn't be at the wedding...so what?  That was my plan from day one.  
Just insert "Big Fancy Formal Going Away Party"  for "pre-wedding party" and you'll be ok I think.

I honestly don't know how your getting so confused on this.  You not only misuderstood one part....but you got the whole thing out of wack, dude.  At least you got my name right.  But I ain't got nothing but love for ya!!!!!

Think what you want to think.  Blast away, just be sure and quote me correctly because your trying to make me sound like a total idiot.   You can have this debate, I will go borrow Papi's palm tree. LOL.


El Ruso....no problem dude.  I see your points too.  Different strokes, ect..  

[el_ruso]

Paps,

as I have explained above, there is no reason why I can't bring the girl over on K1, get a marriage license in US, wait for the travel documents to come in, and then go with her to Colombia to have the actual wedding. 

[Ray]

Russo,

As a Catholic, she would be required, among other things, to…

1. Be married in the Church
2. Raise her children in her faith
3. Attend mass every week and on a few other special days during the year

I understand your viewpoint, but what I was saying is that you would be asking her to violate the rules of her faith and in effect give up her religion to follow your wishes.

That may be O.K. with her, but perhaps deep down inside she may resent you for it, if not now maybe later on.

As far as the kids go, I don’t see how it would hurt to have them instructed in a religion while they are young and in need of moral guidance. When they are older in their teens, they are going to probably make their own choice on practicing their religion or not anyway.

With all of the potential problems that can arise within a marriage, I think it would be wise to eliminate as many as possible when choosing a mate. Having similar religious beliefs is just another one of those combatibility issues that matters to one degree or another and should be given serious consideration, IMHO.

[papi]

well i think today we covered race, religion...but we missed politics. busy day at the planet. goodnight