I am going to start a new thread from RPCV’s post on another topic. His post is below and I disagree with his summary of my view regarding our debate. So include is our complete exchange hopefully organized in a readable manner.
RPCV:
Jamie's comments are not shocking to me at all. I had quite a lengthy discussion on another board (Gringos.com) with him regarding what he believes to be the responsibilities of an agency owner towards his clients.
Basically, the discussion was that as a client, I (and others on that board) felt that we could try to choose a reputable agency but if the agency owner was not honest about the services offered etc, than how is that the client's fault? He said the agency owner is never responsible for anything. If things go well for the client, it is because he made a good choice. If the client pays money and doesn't receive the services advertised on the agency's website, that is the client's responsibility too.
Yet earlier on this thread he said, "People here will not admit to mistakes or take responsibility for anything."
It's great some folks have had success with his agency but his belief that agency owners are not responsible for anything was enough for me to refrain from visiting it.
Poster:
It has also been suggested that there is also a theory that agencies try to sabotage relationships as they are forming…
Jamie:
My thoughts are such a theory is born out of paranoia and a failure to accept responsibility for outcomes. If you go to Colombia and don’t find what you are looking for there is only one to blame and it’s not outside forces, it’s you. I have not met a man who is not 100% to blame for things not working out with a woman. If the agency literally ties you up during your stay, guess what, you’re still to blame. It’s you and only you. It’s you over and over again. It’s not the women, it’s not the children and it’s not the agency it is you know who, you. When it’s not you it’s sill you. I hope I have made this very clear to all those that don’t carry theories of failure outside of you.
RPCV:
I disagree because this would imply that a woman’s actions or agencies do not have any effect on potential relationships.
Jamie:
Of course there will be many interactions but you are responsible for managing this and making the decision appropriate for your success.
RPCV:
So if a guy looks at an agency website, chooses a list of 12 women, pays the agency and discovers after he arrives that the agency can only provide him with introductions to (3) of the ladies on his list, is it his fault?
Jamie:
Yes it is all his fault. The man selected the agency the agency did not select him. It is up the man to determine the ability of the agency to deliver. The man must also understand the likelihood of other forces outside of the man and agency’s control coming in to play and factor this in. If I am walking the city streets at night and a strange man tells me someone down that dark ally wants to talk to me do I blame the strange man if I get beaten up? Now I have given you an obvious example of stupidity but just because someone is less stupid does not alter their complete responsibility in what they do and how they do it.
RPCV:
By that logic, all agencies are allowed to post whatever photos they want and rip off clients as they see fit.
Jamie:
My logic does not infer this.
RPCV:
It is the agency owner who is not accepting responsibility as well and is committing fraud if they do not provide accurate information and honest service to clients. End of story.
If the ladies were never available to begin with, then an agency is advertising something that is not true. He made the best decision he could based on all of the information that was provided to him.
Jamie:
No he didn’t, he made a bad decision and did not get or utilize all the information appropriately. Just because others commit fraud does not alleviate your responsibility in accepting what was “providedâ€.
RPCV:
Sure I take full responsibility for receiving inferior services. And again see response above.
Plain and simple it is fraud by the agency owner, and not the client's fault the owner is only out to make a quick dollar.
Jamie:
With that logic any time someone does not tell you the truth or accomplishes what they say they will do you now have an out to distant yourself from any responsibility.
RPCV:
You have a right make the best informed decision you can with the knowledge you have obtained. Sadly there are many folks out there who think they are above the law.
To me that is misrepresentation. I am not talking about whether the ladies are interested in him after reading his profile/etc; just the basic fact that the ladies are even available as the agency owner presented on his website.
Jamie:
It does not mater if it’s misrepresentation you are still responsible for determining this. Some people fall for fraud others don’t. Those that don’t fall for fraud made the appropriate decisions those that were taken did not.
RPCV:
Long distance relationships are difficult even in the USA so one with a Colombian woman will have as many or more challenges. But in both scenarios each person has to be willing to work together and be on the same page.
Jamie:
If the woman is not willing to “work together†you are at fault for not determining this early enough. If you do not “work together†then you are at fault for not doing enough.
RPCV:
Wow! So a woman has no responsibilities in a relationship.
Jamie:
She has her own self responsibility as do you. I think it is pretty lame when a guy tries to blame a woman for a bad relationship as it is for a woman to blame the man.
RPCV:
It was never about blame. It is about responsibility of BOTH parties involved.
That is, they envision a life together and are sincere in their intentions towards each other. If the guy is sincere, does not shower a Colombian woman with expensive gifts, and it doesn’t work out, is he to blame 100%?
Jamie:
Yes a 101% to blame
RPCV:
Maybe the girl was not interested in him, met someone else or maybe she was a gold digger.
Jamie:
Maybe he should have seen this. Our whole society is falling apart we blame others instead of accepting full responsibility for our life, actions and outcomes.
RPCV:
We can only make informed decisions with the knowledge we have obtained through communication and observations. That is accepting responsibility. It is unfortunate that there are many people out there who try to deceive and fraud others (including agencies).
Jamie:
Life teaches those willing to learn that there are bad people but that does not negate your responsibility in the decisions you make regardless of their input and presence.
RPCV:
but I don’t agree it’s his fault when he encounters a bad apple.
Jamie:
It is if you do not catch it early enough to avoid it being a problem. It is not a case of mind reading to understand and know someone how we go about it determines how we will do.
RPCV:
...you can’t sum up a situation where a woman or agency is being deceitful or dishonest and say what I am doing to cause this action.
Jamie
I am not saying anyone would be causing this action but the person doing the action.
RPCV:
It’s only your fault if you continue once become aware.
Jamie:
Unawareness is not an out.
RPCV:
How is a guy who is not a seasoned traveler going to know the difference?
Jamie:
The more ignorant we are the more problems we will have but our ignorance is not a pardon for falling for deceptions.
RPCV: Nor is it to scam others. In any event I can see that this thread is going nowhere. There are some really great agencies owners out there that I have met. Roy who used to run Cali Charm (and Walter) are two of them. Stand up honest guys.
And if someone run across unscrupulous agency owners, well it is their responsibility to inform others so they can stay away from that agency. It would be very disconcerting to learn a person who runs a business believes they do not have any responsibility to provide accurate services to their potential clients.
Fortunately this board offers a venue to expose those types of individuals and inform others.
My folks have been married 46 years and I can tell you that my dad is not solely responsible for the longevity of the marriage.
Jamie:
You’re missing the point. You comments about dishonest agencies are irrelevant. If you want to stand as an innocent party for selecting a dishonest agency that’s up to you, there is a large crowd of like people who want to point the finger at others for not getting what they want. You need to be concerned with what you can control, not with what other do but what you do.
Let me apply your logic to a pro football coach. The left side of the line is not blocking and our quarterback is getting sacked and were losing games. But as the coach I am not responsible because the offensive linemen said they could do the job they either lied to me or they can’t do as they say. They need to take responsibility for the team’s loss not me. I suspect the owner would give the coach an extended contract for such thinking right?
Those that want to blame agencies, wacky theories and bad girls for their plight will be singing this song for a very long time.
RPCV
Not suprised by that comment at all.
Jamie
Well I am not surprised either those that make excuses will continue to make excuses.
RPCV
And there are those agency owners that will never believe they are accountable for anything either. Unbelievable.
Jamie
You still don’t get it, (you are right) of course they are. That is the environment we live in, which means knowing this allows one to act accordingly and consider such possibilities in their selection process. But most people don’t do such scrutiny. It is very rare for someone to ever ask me for a referral. Yet my own website tells you this is one of checks you should make to verify a good agency. I just had a guy call wanting to use our Personal Introductions I tell him I have some married clients that have used this service living in your city would you like to talk to them, no I don’t need to I read you website. Now this guy does not know me. Very few of my clients are from the forums where they can say I all ready know your history. Now you don’t think this lack of scrutiny goes on with other guys and bad agencies and when the results turn bad who is to blame. Well from your standpoint the agency is responsible and not the man. How does this allow you to take control of your life by not taking full responsibility?
RPCV:
No it is YOU that does not get it. If you go back and read my previous post(s), you will see that I specifically stated that I believe both parties are responsible. The client and agency owner. What is so hard to understand about that fact??
A dishonest agency owner will continue to operate until he's exposed for the fraud he is and thus eventually lose business as a result. As for me, I will continue to inform everyone I know about agencies, the good and the bad ones.
Jamie:
Your correlation from this to that is missing a bridge it is good for people to pass on such information no one is saying otherwise.
Poster:
But, no one is all seeing and all knowing... You say that not knowing... is not an out... come on lets be reasonable here... no one is looking for outs.
Jamie:
The last thing most people want to do is accept reasonability. The boards are loaded with guys who can’t get what they want and blame every one but themselves. And the funny thing is they are usually the guys panning out most of the advice. You don’t have to be all seeing and all knowing to make good decisions. Does that mean every decision is going to be good, no. Does it mean I don’t have to take reasonability for that decision, no again.
Poster:
But, IF you the owner know she is a predator and introduce me to her its wrong... I think you (the agency owner) have a responsibility to tell me (the customer). This way I can make an informed decision weather or not to continue with this woman what happens next is on me.
Jamie:
Well if the agency owner knows she is a predator he should not have her in his agency. But lets say he is committing a wrong by not telling you critical information, guess what, nothing changes you are still fully responsible for determining the make of the woman. Lets say your future wife’s neighbor knew she was a prostitute and you had met the neighbor many times and she never said anything to you and you don’t find this out till the marriage breaks up. Is this neighbor now the one primarily responsible for your bad marriage? There appears to be no end to not wanting to say it was me, it was me, it was me. I see first hand what passes for communication between many men and women and you know what I don’t think the communication can be any more superficial than what flirting 13 years olds would say to each other in a playground. So I am not surprised by the troubles that eventually pop up, but of course he is still not at fault.
I just saw an email where a woman tells her suitor that she sleeps with her mom. A 30 year old woman is sleeping with her mom. Now if this was going to be my girl I would have some questions on the matter. How long have you been sleeping with you mom? How are you going to feel being separated from your mom? What is the longest period of time you have been away from your mom? Can I sleep with you mom too? Ok I wouldn’t ask that question but surely questions should be asked. Guess what no questions. Now if this girl goes to the States, and leaves the man out of homesickness judging by my debaters he was not responsible because she was the incapable one and he didn’t know it.
RPCV:
Hmm... So if "an agency owner knows a girl is a predator, he should not have her in his agency". But it really doesn't matter if he does because guess what, "nothing changes you are still fully responsible for determining the make of the woman". Wow that's fair. I guess I'll go open a used car dealership and sell flooded cars without telling my customers about the car's history. And if they buy them, hey it's their fault.
Jamie:
Everyone still needs to be held accountable for their actions and if a man deceptively sold you a car there is appropriate legal action for you to take and that man should be punished. But you are still responsible for making a bad decision for buying one from him.
RPCV:
Yes the man is responsible for making a bad decision based on the fact the car dealer fraudulently represented the vehicles. Can we at least agree on something? But the same applies to fraudulent agency owners. Or are they not accountable for their actions?
Poster:
But to say no matter what the circumstances the only one at fault here is the guy? If this is what you are communicating here, sorry I respectfully disagree.
Jamie
I am not saying that. Responsibility applies to both parties I am only speaking from the man’s perspective.
If a man successfully connects with a good woman he is responsible for making this happen.
If a man connects with a bad woman he is responsible for not determining this before hand.
If a woman successfully connect with a good man she is responsible for making this happen.
If a bad woman connects with a good man her behavior does not diminish the man from being responsible as hard as it may have been to discover such information.
Switching the genders around does not change anything because were talking about self responsibility. What others did to hinder you does not change this.
RPCV:
Yet you stated above, "But let’s say he is committing a wrong by not telling you critical information, guess what, nothing changes you are still fully responsible for determining the make of the woman". According to that, you believe it is solely the client’s responsibility. So which is it; are both parties responsible or only the client?
Jamie:
My quote was referencing the man and the woman not the man and the agency. As much as you abhor hearing this you are responsible for all your decisions. I am done with my lesson you fit in with the advocates that it is someone else’s fault. The criminal shots a victim and the responsible party is of course the gun manufacture and if you are not there yet that is the path you are on.
RPCV:
Here we go again. An agency owner is always right and not accountable. As I have stated before, clients are responsible for making the best informed choices they can as are agency owners to be honest and upfront about their services. I have nothing else to add to this thread carry on.
If an agency owner is upfront and runs an honest business and I do not connect with any of the women, I take full responsibility for that. Anyone with some sense of self awareness would do the same. But to scam clients, and run a shady, dishonest business has nothing to do with a client being responsible. In the states, those individuals that do this receive fines and prisons sentences.
Poster:
When you are in a relationship and your ignorant and stay that way its on you... when your in a relationship or in business with someone and its based on trust and honesty... and one person decides to breach that trust by using lies and deceit its on them..
Jamie:
Who determines who is ignorant you may see someone as very ignorant yet he may not see himself as such and rejects responsibility. So who dictates, “its on you� To the smartest man in the world we are all ignorant which by you definition correctly assigns us as always being responsible.
