Why so many divorces!

[Revan]

                                            Why marriages Are not working out in America!

As some of you know I’m a recently new member here and for a while I’ve been thinking why is there so much divorce in America and what are the major causes for this rising in unhappy marriages. Please If you see something I missed or have a difference of opinions please express them. Just for you to know I will be using some Christian references except I won’t be using the standard Christian answer of people should do this “because the bible says you should do this”.I will be going more in depth than that.To me it’s a culture failing. So lets get to it shall we.

Selfishness:Now of course this does not apply to everyone but to a majority none the less.Look at commercials with lines like Have it YOUR way(burger king) or obey YOUR thirst.Now we all know that a relationship is not about just one person but 2 people.Unfortunaly our culture today focuses a lot on the me, myself, and I philosophy and once one person in the relationship is only looking out for their own self you can’t expect it to last long.

Infidelity: In a way this goes along with selfishness aspect in 2 ways. One, the person is just cares about having fun and doesn’t care who’s feelings they hurt.The bible says that when either spouse asks for intimacy they should not be denied unless in times of fasting and prayer.Now one might ask why would the bible say such a thing? This brings us to aspect 2. think about if a person is not getting their needs(sex, Emotional support, etc) fulfilled in a relationship their going to go some where else to get that need fulfilled.Now does this make it right to cheat on people, NO but it does make it understandable.

Lack of commitment to the relationship: lets face it! In America we’ve had it good for to long so most of us don’t true hardship like in third world countries.For a lot of people they wait for that special someone with too many expectations.Once they get married to “The One” they find out that person is not perfect. A lot of women at that time will try to mold the man to their liking but when reality sinks in she jumps boat.Thats the main problem when people don’t the situation fun anymore or it’s getting to a uncomfortable place in the relationship most people just want to High tail it out of there and go to a situation more comfortable!

And finally, Too much competiveness and instead of corroboration: I don’t know about you guys but I’m getting tired of a culture where the women constantly feels like she needs to challenge a guys plan on something just because she feels like she needs to validate that she is a strong independent women which usually leads to petty arguments over small little things.Now I have no problem with a girl expressing her opinion but she doe’s not have to make a big deal about everything. Another thing that I think really hurts a relationship is where either partner keeps complaining about everything.

Well this my thesis.If guys have any comments at all please share them

[jm21-2]

I don't think selfishness is anything new...western philosophers have been naming at as a defining aspect of humanity for quite a while now.

An interesting note on infidelity: a friend of mine mentioned an article a while back interviewing a woman who said she cheated on her husband because he wanted too much sex (). They got back together and she said their sex life was better now because she had more control...I honestly am not sure what it all means, but food for thought.

My dad was a marriage counselor way back when, and he said one of the primary causes of divorce he saw was being what he described as out of sync with a partner. For example, the couple has children and takes different shifts so one can be at home all the time to save on daycare, but then they don't see each other much and grow distant. One person is not very religious and the other is a an avid church-goer...the one who's not very religious wants to go do things over the weekend but the other wants to make sure s/he gets to church. One partner goes to work later than the other: the other gets up early and has to get ready for work watching the other sleep, while the later-going spouse comes back home later to find the other already relaxed.
(EDIT: This wouldn't be a problem if this was a country with a more standardized work week/day, less diverse religious beliefs, and/or it was the norm for one partner to stay home)

Another one I've noticed is a lack of forethought and practicality when it comes to choosing a partner. It seems taboo to think about relationships practically as well as romantically. For example, a friend of mine who's not very religious was dating a Jehova's Witness. At least in this part of the country, they can be a little bit out there. We told him a few dozen times to talk about religion with her because it could be a big problem. He kept refusing, they were in love. A few months in, she happened to bring up a topic touching on religion because of a news article and the relationship ended within 4 hours or so. A friend of one of my cousins took 7 years of being married to a girl to figure out that when she kept saying she didn't want kids, she really meant it. A girl friend of a friend in college married a guy without even thinking about his future job prospects (they were none).

I'd say, also, because we move around so much and there's such an emphasis on independence in our society, we tend not to develop long, close friendships as much or at all, or close familial relationships, which leads to problems when forming a romantic relationship or starting a family. We have very few reference points to guide our decisions.

Just my $.02

[Jeff S]

I have to agree some with jm's comments. We don't seem to teach young people these days things that they need to equip themselves for life and living. If you ever listen to to the women who call into Dr. Laura's show, they're shocked to learn very simple principles she outlines in her book, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands." Women of the past would have been taught that from early childhood. While modern feminism has had some good aspects, it has brought with it plenty of bad. Young American women have been taught that men and women are interchangeable. Women is combat are just as good as men, you can screw anyone you want any time you want, just like a man, two women, two men, one women, one man, it doesn't matter when raising a child. Women used to be the civilizers and men the ones needing to be reined in - now we see girlfight videos on the internet, and every movie has to have at least one scene where the big breasted, 100 lb heroine, kicks the crap out of two 250 ln mafia hit men, or the big bruiser male marines cower in the foxhole, while the cute blond mows down battalions of bad guys with an M60.

I'm not blaming it all on women, though. Lots of men, haven't been taught the responsibilities their grandparents were ingrained with. A wife used to be something to be treasured and protected. It used to be shameful for your wife to have to work - that was the man's job to bring home the bacon. An affair was something scandalous that may result in the additional scandal of an out of wedlock child. Men were proud of being good husbands and fathers and ashamed to be thought of as anything less.

In Japan, as late as 1980, more than half of the marriages were arranged, and divorce was miniscule. Then it dropped to about 1 - 2% by 2000 an ddivoce rates climbed to almost US levels. Interestingly enough, arranged marriages are coming back. Now every women out there is thinking - Oh the horrors of being forced to be a sex slave for someone you don't love. Japanese omiai (marriage arrangement) is not mandatory. It's done by the families who research possible marriage candidates, looking for characteristics, like their education, personality, familiy history, etc. and arrange meetings. The girls aren't forced into anything. It's more like a matchmaker service. These are in general far more successful that "love marriages."

No one teaches young women what to look for in men, nor men what to look for in women. Women think that if a man makes her heart go pitter pat, all will work out in the end, without concern whether or not he's low life, bad boy - and men seem to think if she makes his member stand up and pay attention, all else can be disregarded. How many relationships begin as projects? He/she has a lot of potential, and I know with my love (s)he'll come around. How many sobbing women call Dr. Laura saying, "I thought he would change after we got married."

Personally I believe a marriage is a team, and I can't believe anyone wouldn't pick the strongest and smartest possible teammate they could find to help them through life. I also don't believe love is something you find or fall into. It's something you do, every day, day after day, whether you want to or not. First you do love then later you feel love. A couple who choses wisely and follows that principle will not ever have to worry about divorce. Ones who ignore it, well the clock is ticking.

- Jeff

[bundy_138]

I think the biggest probelm in insecurity.  Many man are so afraid that there woman will cheat on them that they become controlling and possessive.  Especially if she is beautiful and from a foreign country. This scares the shat out of the woman and either she "runs for the hills" or finds the comfort in the arms of another man.

I can honestly say I have been guilty of that myself.  Come to find out, the beotch was cheating on me, so I don't feel to bad about the way I was.  

Bundy

[jm21-2]

As always, Jeff, you have some great points.

It sometimes seems like to achieve equality American women have decided to become as bad as men could ever be, instead of forcing men to be better. Although the former is the easier, quicker, and more controllable path, the consequences have been less than great...

They also seem to want men to perform all the traditional roles: worship her during courtship, be the primary breadwinner, prepare for their retirement...but don't know or want anything to do with traditional female roles. Especially in female grad students this seems to escalate to a ridiculous level. At one point, every girl in a class of mine joined in mutual bragging about how they had never changed a diaper and didn't know a thing about parenting. I'm not sure I've met any who can cook something more complicated than a hamburger. It seems a shame that most of the brightest women in our country look down on parenting like that. Of course, then there are the guys who think marriage is a burden, a worthless and out-dated tradition, or far off in the future. I'm always surprised talking with people who think the ideal time to have children is in their '40s or later...seems like they don't realize that it gets harder for a woman to bear a child as she ages, and it will almost certainly mean a later retirement. That's not to mention the higher risk of a parent dying while the child is growing up...it's like they think they'll live forever and never get bored of working.

[Revan]

Hey Jm21, You touched on a subject I've been wrestling with for a while.As you guys know I plan to get all the way to a Phd in business admin but the way I see it I won't complete college until I'm like 32 ! and the deal is if I have a family I want at least 6 kids.So the way I see it I have to choices: to either get married during my college days or to get married after my Phd program(which I plan to get in taiwan).I mean if get married during my college years I might get married to someone who says they might want to travel through asia but later might not really mean it when the time comes.If I get married after I finish my Phd program I know it might be hard on my wife to have children.What a delima .Though there could possibly be a middle ground, I could corresponde to girl from one of the countries I'll be visiting If she's willing to wait for me and for me to have visits during the holidays.To you guys what would be the better course of action?Oh! and by the way some of my friends brought up the Idea of waiting a while to get married. According to them They just want to make sure they can financially support a child before they bring them into this world.

[Jeff S]

I say get your phd - then later get married to a younger Asian girl who likes Asia and wants to spend time there. You can still have all the kids you want, since she'll be a) more interested in being a traditional wife, and 2) be younger so has more time on her clock to make babies. I'd STRONGLY recommend you do not get married while you're in college especially not to a graduate student, and expect her to not want to nest and start collecting Prada purses and Mercedes'.

Plenty of guys on this board are older and making families with younger ladies. It sounds as though you're Christian, and want to hook up with the same, so I suggest the Philippines. Plenty of god fearing ladies there who don't mind a wider age difference and just want to be the best wives and mothers they can.

- Jeff

[daytrader]

Good thread....great topic, there's a lot to it, I'll throw in my three cents worth; 

Remember all those WWII movies, where the guy marries the girl just before going off to war?  During the days of WWII, there were many whirlwind romances, marriages, kids and they stay married a long time! 

Why?  I believe because there was a common culture in America, many ***shared values***, and I think a basis to make a marriage commitment that could frequently last a long time.  I experienced the positive aspects of this culture while growing up in he 60's in Ohio in a town of 20,000.  You could knock on any door and the folks inside would invite you to stay for dinner 9 out of 10 times. 

If one were to expound the values of that time as a basis for having a relationship TODAY, many times you would be run out of town on a rail in VERY short order.  At the minimum you would be called closed minded, bigoted, insensitive, etc.

America is becoming "balkanized" (divided into many different subgroups, pitting one group vs another), losing it's identity of common values.  The unrelenting attack since the late 50's against Christianity in this country (yo, remember the 10 Commandments?) has brought a inexorable slide downward in terms of morality, honesty, truthfulness, faithfulness.  Marriage is going to be one of the first institutions that is going to falter (it has). 

Feminism and the constant belittling/putdowns of males in the media, movies, commercials and educational institutions leaves me with no hope of finding any satisfying relationship in the USA in the near term.  With much less time and effort me and my Cali Diamond have surpassed any expectations/experiences I have ever had in the past with any American woman I have known. 

Without a common moral standard between two partners and a willingness to be held accountable by the other partner for those standards - selfishness, materialism and sometimes adultery are likely to pull apart the relationship IMO.

With a common moral standard and a willingness to be accountable to those standards (yeah, that's the Bible  -- Ephesians 5:21 comes to mind) and a resistance to today's feminism, materialism, humanism and a proclivity to self-centeredness -- a marriage in today's Culture War still will have many obstacles to overcome.  But the odds will likely be much better for success.  I am strongly considering living in SA if/when my relationship proceeds further to avoid many of the Culture War issues that currently rage in America. 

DayTrader 

 

[jm21-2]

Revan,
Although I would say ideally having kids in the early-mid 30's is a good idea, having kids with a woman you're not sure about, at a time when you can't financially support them, or when you don't have much time for family (for example, when you're just starting in on a career), are all bad ideas.

I'm in law school right now and can't imagine starting a family. They say 50% of relationships end in law school...dunno about other grad schools. There's too much work, you don't have much money or vacation time, you're stressed out a lot, your schedule may become very irregular near due dates and exams...not the time to have kids imho. I know one guy who's raising 2 kids, but he's studying part time, taking care of the kids during the day, while his wife pays the bills (she's a surgeon). Not quite sure where he found a girl like that, but anyways...I can't imagine having kids in grad school being a good idea, but maybe your graduate program will be more conducive to it.

Daytrader,
Excellent point, and I do understand you tying morality to religion, as the two often reinforce each other, but you can have one without the other. I'm sure you can think of some examples. Personally, I'm an Atheist and sometimes people think I'm a fundi Christian. I think your point on balkanization is excellent, but I have a hard time believing a decline in Christianity is the primary cause. I'm honestly not sure what the primary cause is, but increased availability of long distance transportation and communication, many employers demanding mobility, the idea that a well-traveled person is a "better" person, a decline in buying power, more mixture of economic classes and cultural groups, urbanization, and many other factors have contributed.

I think we may be starting to go beyond balkanization as well, to becoming one huge confused mass of individuals. Although the small town where I grew up had very defined groups, the urban environments I've lived in do not, except sometimes down ethnic lines. Most of the time I feel like I have absolutely no clue what to expect from people. Their moral standards, tastes, hobbies, religion, etc. could be anywhere on the spectrum, or maybe just a mad jumble of colors. It's hard to find someone who has similar enough values and interests to be a friend, much less something romantic.

[Jeff S]

I agree with you jm. The intelligent person will recognize living a moral life to be the most pro-survival thing to do for himself, his family, his nation, and mankind in general, whether dictated by religious dogma or not. I'm a Taoist, myself, but certainly have no trouble with anyone embracing any religion, especially if it grounds them. My wife's religion and mine are quite different, but it doesn't mean our values are.

- Jeff

[daytrader]

There is a definite cause & effect between the humanism/secularlism post WWII against Christianity, that has always been the Humanist's first target.  Whatever elements that are not arrayed against Christianity are firing their guns full bore at Israel. 

Recommended reading:
 
A on-target overview of the current situation can be quickly read here:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed122304a.cfm

also, Heritage uses Google as their site search engine;

www.heritage.org  -- search for culture war, Christianity, etc.

Also invite readers to read the Humanist Manifesto of 1933 & 1973 and now a Humanist Manifesto III is available on the below link.  Keep in mind, Marx was basically a Humanist + economic theorist (none of which worked, by the way), ....hopefully this will open some eyes that may not have been aware of the forces seeking to take control of American Society. 

http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html

The United Nations and the establishment of the Euro currency are also part of the agenda to reduce/eliminate the positive Judeo-Christian influence that America has had on the World the past 200+ years.  The logic and evidence are readily available to support this. 

Ayn Rand's writings offer a different perspective of the some of the same issues minus a lot of the Judeau-Christian elements, also excellent reading. 

IMO, one of the final steps of balkanization will be allowing all these illegal aliens to become citizens then immediately stick their hand out wanting more!  The rumored North American currrency and a tariff-free superhighway from Mexico to the northern Midwest will effectively render our southern border meaningless.  It's all happening or due to happen in the immediate near future.  Our currency has dropped 15% and expected to fall another 13% this year against the mighty Euro. 

Jeff & jm - you guys kinda make my point;  what are the odds I'd meet an  Atheist and a Taoist  in Fremont, Ohio in 1965?  (Yes, I'm sure there were Atheists in Fremont, maybe I could count them on one hand and have a few fingers left over). 

God Bless you All, I mean it! 

Kindest regards,

DayTrader

[jm21-2]

Recommended reading:
 
A on-target overview of the current situation can be quickly read here:

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed122304a.cfm

I'm not going to argue that Christianity hasn't been under attack, but I'm not sure how it makes a difference to morality. To do so I would have to buy that Christians are more moral than people with any other set of religious beliefs. Sorry, that hasn't been my experience. And what kind of Christianity are we talking about? Calvinists, Quakers, and Catholics could find quite a bit to disagree about as far as morality goes I would think.

Also invite readers to read the Humanist Manifesto of 1933 & 1973 and now a Humanist Manifesto III is available on the below link.  Keep in mind, Marx was basically a Humanist + economic theorist (none of which worked, by the way), ....hopefully this will open some eyes that may not have been aware of the forces seeking to take control of American Society. 

http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html

I can't say I disagree with anything in Manifesto III outright. What exactly is so abhorrent about it, literally? I could see serious problems resulting if it was applied in certain ways, but that's it.

For example: seeking to minimize the inequities of circumstance and abilities. I can think of some good things that come from this way of thinking like charity, federal loans for education, work study programs, and care for the handicapped. But if taken too far it would become socialism.

The United Nations and the establishment of the Euro currency are also part of the agenda to reduce/eliminate the positive Judeo-Christian influence that America has had on the World the past 200+ years.  The logic and evidence are readily available to support this.

Umm...how much global influence did America have in the 18th century? America has been isolationist for most of its lifespan.

Ayn Rand's writings offer a different perspective of the some of the same issues minus a lot of the Judeau-Christian elements, also excellent reading.

A link to a good example perhaps?

IMO, one of the final steps of balkanization will be allowing all these illegal aliens to become citizens then immediately stick their hand out wanting more!  The rumored North American currrency and a tariff-free superhighway from Mexico to the northern Midwest will effectively render our southern border meaningless.  It's all happening or due to happen in the immediate near future.  Our currency has dropped 15% and expected to fall another 13% this year against the mighty Euro.

The illegal aliens already contribute quite a bit to balkanization, but I somehow doubt they will be given the right to vote in the immediate future.

A superhighway going from Mexico wouldn't cause much more illegal immigration if there was proper regulation.

And the rise of the Euro is not because of economics?

Jeff & jm - you guys kinda make my point;  what are the odds I'd meet an  Atheist and a Taoist  in Fremont, Ohio in 1965?  (Yes, I'm sure there were Atheists in Fremont, maybe I could count them on one hand and have a few fingers left over).

Out of 20 some thousand people in the town where I grew up, there were about 4 other Atheists my age, one Muslim, maybe a Wiccan or two, and a whole [snip]load of Christians. Strangely, there was still crime, still drug abuse, still [snip]s, still the same problems as everywhere else in the US.

What you really seem to be suggesting is that back in 1965 in Fremont, Ohio, everyone thought the same way. They had the same or very similar religious and moral beliefs. They could relate to each other, they knew what to expect, there weren't many surprises, not much confusion on how a person should act...but that's more the product of a small, relatively isolated, homogeneous society, rather than Christianity.

[daytrader]

jm - America Isolationist?  The French Revolution was directly caused by the American Revolution.  Every democracy in human history owes it very soul to the USA, even Great Britain (remember King George?).  All this was done without physical intervention into other countries.  Yes, America was isolationist in the 19th century but by our very existence the USA started changing human history.  Teddy Roosevelt commenced intervention in foreign lands early in the 20th century.     

The Humanist Manifesto III does away with private property (collectivism - ie., Marxism), silences any other religion except Humanism (at least they DO say it is a religion in the 3rd Manifesto!)  -- no religious tolerance there -- the 14th amendment does away with Capitalism...note the use of the word "radical"  ie, revolutionary...

If you want the Humanist Manifesto in your country, I would suggest moving to Cuba; the Constitution of the United States is about empowering the individual with freedom ....not a New Deal by FDR...you can get that in Cuba, Canada and Europe with their socialized medicine, anemic economic growth, and unemployed muslim youth firebombing hundreds of French autos every night.   

No other country has freed more people from poverty and evil dictators than America...heck in the past 4 years 50 million people no longer live under the onerous thumb of Saddam or the Taliban...Religion is the root cause of what is happening in the Middle East and only 3 Judeo-Christian countries care enuff (to a major degree) to change the situation (Austrailia, USA, Britain). 

I quote from the Humanist Manifesto III;
FOURTEENTH: The humanists are firmly convinced that existing acquisitive and profit-motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate and that a radical change in methods, controls, and motives must be instituted. A socialized and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that the equitable distribution of the means of life be possible. The goal of humanism is a free and universal society in which people voluntarily and intelligently cooperate for the common good. Humanists demand a shared life in a shared world.

Just about every major scientific, educational, medical, economic and military campaign in human history the past 500 years has been the result of a "Judeo/Christian" society that attempts to practice (however imperfectly) religous tolerance, education, economic & private property freedom. Christianity as used here means any group that believes in the divinity of the Son, Father & Holy Spirit. 

The libraries would be empty chronicling the same achievements of the Arab and  Muslim civilizations.  The Far East has made many accomplishments but in no way compare to the Judeo/Christian model as history has copiously recorded.

The Euro is expressly created to draw power and influence away from the USD.  Oil exporting countries are starting to denominate exports in Euros as well as Communist China, our largest holder of US Treasury debt.  Along with looming defaults in Medicare and Social Security, the USD is headed to continued devaluation the rest of our lifetimes unless basic reforms are made to entitlements.  ** this is a reason to consider being an ex-pat ** in the near future. 

The Super Highway from Mexico would be beyond the scope of any American governmental authority...it will be a NAFTA free trade zone; um something like the U.N. Oil for food program, remember that?

More info in below link;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53803

Any Rand has a site via Google; I'm sure there are some good commentaries on her finest book, Atlas Shrugged. 

Thanks for responding, hope this brain-food provides further thought and consideration. 

DayTrader

[daytrader]

My error, the quote of the 14th amendment is of the Humanist Manifesto I.  Keep in mind, every edict and goal of any Humanist Manifesto requires some person/s to be in authority to DECIDE what to implement when and where...there is no mention of individual freedom...the only alternative to individual freedom is authoritarian rule.  If one wants authoritarian rule, I invite them to Cuba...via Panama or Canada, of course.

I'll take the Constitution and Declaration of Independence over the Super Nanny State of the Humanists any day.....

DayTrader

[william3rd]

THIS is brain food?!?!??!?!?!?!

Really right on point with the divorce topic, I see. Why dont you try to explain all of it to your girlfriend in detail?

And as far as "saving" the Iraqis or Afghanis goes. . . . dont go there!! Did you know that Karzai is known as the "mayor" of Kabul?

Better minds have been debating these issues and I dont feel that debate has no business on this board under a topic about divorces.

[doombug]

...I dont feel that debate has no business on this board under a topic about divorces.

Maybe so, but it was still an interesting read.

[daytrader]

Thanks for the kind words Doombug....not everything in life fits into a nice little form! 

To swerve back on topic, I invite everyone to look at this link; 

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/MapOfTheFamilyCharts.cfm?chartid=173#chart

It is a bunch of Power Point graphs displaying all kinds of reasons/causes of successful marriages and also for divorces.  American's slide into this slime pit of divorce has mostly occurred since the early 60's, when prayer and Bible Study were prohibited in public schools.  No one that I know wants a State Religion or for any religion to be forcefed in any public institution, but "the free exercise thereof" should be allowed if I want to read or pray in my private time anywhere in the USA.  Religious intolerance by official State sanction seeks to undermine the moral underpinnings of any Judeo/Christian society and pave the way to facism i.e., Nazism, Russian Revolution, almost any Muslim country, etc. 

(did you know that in the 19th century, if a law didn't directly address what a judge was deciding, it was common practice for the judge to consult the Holy Bible? - It sat right on his desk, in plain view of everyone.  Do you know that the Ten Commandments are engraved in the soffit of the Supreme Court Chambers, facing the very idiots that are undermining every moral foundation of this country?) 

A cool site to check out that is set up in Internet 2.0 fashion is...

www.ebible.com


These events are all related to the moral crises that plague America today and why we do NOT have a common moral fabric to American society any longer.  Each has gone his own way....

You may not agree but I encourage you to think about it...



DayTrader

[Bear]

Wow I like this topic.

Why did I divorce?  I hated being the protector and provider to someone who thought it was my responsibility to perform, unrewarded for my efforts, and even worse, that I should be chided for inability,mistakes and failures.  A man is ego and the result of being married to an AW is to be continually punished for it.

I am very religious and hold the priesthood within my faith.  Divorcing was an unbelievable nightmare for me.  It was an admission of failure and a religious "taboo".  Everyone I knew berated me for doing it.  Note I am not faulting them because I agree with them with except that I could not tolerate the lack of respect for my efforts (meaning I made lots of mistakes, as we all do, but I was trying as hard as I knew how - and being punished for following the rules and trying just isn't right).

I read a religious article about the 5 types of marriage and will try to relate the positions (remember this was about 30 years ago)...
1) the Selfish Marriage - seek only their wants in a marriage and get everything you want.  Duration 6 to 18 months.
2) the Compromise Marriage - seek your wants but be willing to compromise.  Problem want happens when you won't compromise? Duration 18 months to 3 years.  (This is the style I remember being pushed most when I was in my teens)
3) I do not remember much about the 3rd style only that both remained together but changed and were unwilling to adapt to each other needs and changes so they "grew apart.  Duration 3-18 years.
4) the Single Self-Sacrificer.  When one person feels like everytime things got hard or a difficult decision had to be made, they were the ones who took it on the chin.  Duration 18-25 years.  (This is were I believed I was in my first marriage).
5) the 100-100 Marriage.  Basically it means you spend 100% (or more) of your time considering your spouses needs, wants, desires, etc.  This marriage should your pick a spouse who agrees and acts as you do, rewards you with the desires of the "Selfish marriage" but they are given to you out of "Love" by your spouse.  Duration: 1 in 17.1 families who use this method divorce.  (Odd how I remember that number!)

When I read this I immediately when to my AW and said lets do it this way.  She agreed I should but she stuck to the selfish marriage so I gave and she did for herself. When my last child with her turned 18 I couldn't run from that marriage fast enough.

Am I cruel?  I remember the feelings of "Joy" because I was "free" and the looks on the peoples faces as I ran yelling "I'm Free" to the bedroom to pack when I realized it (6 days after my sons birthday).  Followed by months of confusion and indecision on what I should do.  Constant harassment from family, friends and the church to go back to her.  When I explained how unhappy I was, and how tired I was of having my manhood berated all I heard was I was being selfish and disobeying Gods commandments.

Being a believer in all things of God I decided to ask him. (BTW at this point I had met my wonderful Honey and she was a supporter of my ex and the thought that I should go back to her. She often chided me and tried to convince me to suck it up and go back).  I fasted and at the end of the fast I simply said "Father, I'll marry the first girl who sings me a song".  Honestly in the back of my head I was thinking some girl 5 years in the future would sing Happy Birthday to me and I'd use that as a reason to get married again.  5 minutes after the fast was ended Honey was singoing me a song.  The hair on my body must have made me look like a porcupine because it was totally un-expected.  I remember looking up and saying "OK, I understand".

I too think we teach our daughters to challenge us, to be competitors not companions, to be self-reliant and independent.  It is our fault.

I think had things not been of Gods planning then I see so many places this marriage could have been a major nightmare.  My wife had been abused verbally and physically by both family and friends.  It has been a exceedingly difficult chore to build her ego to one of a person who deserves respect for her efforts.  To teach her that all the people she knows are wrong because she is beautiful - everyone, and I've heard many, tell her she's ugly!?  And stupid - this to a girl who was the class valedictorian at her college and made the 2nd highest score on the entrance exams in the history of the college.  I thought it was be simple to compliment her in to believing, man was I wrong.  It has been one of the most difficult things in my life to get her to understand how wonderful she really is,simply because "God made her" and he doesn't make mistakes.  The beauty and intelligence is just icing on the cake.

The thoughts of her being more capable than an AW were unfounded.  The hopes her experiences would make her more mature where blown away with the wind.  She was a child who had no idea what a relationship was only that her church mandated it last for all time and eternity.  But she loved and respected me and soon learn that I could be trusted and she acknowledged my efforts as I did hers.  To think I did not experience love until my late fourties is such a sadness because it is so fullfilling.  I don't know how to be happier simply because I see her smile and nothing means more.

I know I'll teach my daughter (should I every have one) that she is what every her husband believes her to be because no one else matters, and if she is patient and picks a good man then she will be happy.  Until she marries she is in power and should exercise it will full authority, but once she marries she is to make sure his authority is unchallenged and fully supported - submitting her will to his.  The scriptures clearly say a woman who obeys her husband in all things, the gates of heaven will not be closed to her, but he shall answer for her sins (they are his if she was obeying him!).

To all the evil "isms" of the world, you are but the imperfect thoughts of man.  All the answers come from God.

The Bear Family

[Ray]

A lot of good thoughts in this thread!

One more point to consider in the sharp rise in the divorce rate is the changes that have occurred in the legal system. With the advent of no fault divorce, it has become so easy to end a marriage that too many couples are breaking up for the wrong reasons. The state has no more desire to attempt to keep families together and multiple marriages and divorces have become all too common.

A silly little spat over some relatively insignificant event is all the reason some folks need to file for divorce. For women, it gives them a chance to wield power over their spouse by taking away his home, his children, and a good portion of his income and there isn’t much of anything he can do about it.

The lawyers have corrupted the system to the point where families don’t stand a chance. When a wife sits down with a divorce attorney, he will usually tell her that her husband is going to end up paying for both attorneys so it won’t cost her anything. To make sure that she doesn’t change her mind about the divorce by reconciling with her husband, the attorney will insist that she file for a restraining order to prohibit the husband from contacting her or going anywhere near her.

Kicked out of his own home, the husband is effectively powerless to fight the divorce. He can fight for custody of the children, but it can cost big bucks for legal fees. The attorneys end up with most of the couple’s assets by dragging the process out and making frivolous court filings and charging exorbitant fees for court appearances.

I guess one thing helping to keep the divorce rate lower than it could be is the fact that now many couples won’t get legally married so they can avoid the trauma of divorce.

[doombug]

What a treasure trove.

Visually, these stats come off much more stunning than were they quoted from a text.

Truly stunning:

[Revan]

Hey guys.I'm glad at how the post is turning out!Bear, sad to hear that your church kept beraiding you even though you tried you best to keep the marriage together.Just to ask, Did any of you church members try to talk to your ex wife so she might change some of her behavior? I know how mest up alot of christians can be as I go to a christian school.From my observations a lot of people from my school seem just as selfish,stuck up, and willing to inflict pain to others without caring about the other persons feelings just like any other person though there are some good ones there.Theres this one girl in my class who  Is good looking but gets a new boyfriend every year .When she gets bored of  one guy she dumps him. If I were to put any of the Girls at my school to the Virtuous women test(proverbs 31:10-31):

She is trust worthy
She is not lazy
She makes sure her house is looked aftered(in this case the people around her)
She reaches out to the needy and poor.
Strength and honor are her clothing
She openeth her mouth with wisdom
In her tongue is the law of kindness

many of the girles at my school would fail this test .One interesting thing is that every year in september our school goes on a retreat(no T.V.,Radio,Cell phone,etc) for a week.All we do is eat, play challenge games, and hear preaching all week.During that time you can see a change in the student's attitudes but as soon as they get back to the city everything goes back to the same.

Jm, I think it was you who said  that practicality and feelings should go hand in hand when looking for a partner which I have to agree with you.I can't tell you how many people I have seen that make alot of choices based on feelings.Theirs just one problem they over look: the fact that since humans  are fallible(make mistakes) that means your feelings can be fallible also, while logic is less likely to make mistakes. 

[Revan]

Doombug

I know those statisics all to well.My mom got a divorce when I was like 3.Pretty much after that know one wanted to be around me because they were to busy working.One time I confronted her about it when I was like 13 and all she had to say was "don't try to blame this on me,I'm not  the one at fault here" . Since then I have seen this attitude of not taking responsibility for your actions in other people.Not to metion I've been called names by my mom(stupid,idiot) and she is close to getting a divorce again because she does the same thing to my stepdad.Since 16 I have been determind to not let my future children go through the same thing  ;)and to find a women Some where else.

P.S.: I heard a pastor tell a story once about when he was doing a funeral.He saw the children of the dead women pass by the casket with out a tear.A few months later he gave another funeral(for another women who was a Maid) and he saw the same 2 boys pass the casket,crying their eyes out.When the pastor asked them why the boys did't cry for their mother the boys said,"that women was't our mother.This women here(the maid) was our mother.She was the one who read us storys, played with us, and was there for us when we were sad.The other women was just Concerned with her career".

[doombug]

He saw the children of the dead women pass by the casket with out a tear.A few months later he gave another funeral(for another women who was a Maid) and he saw the same 2 boys pass the casket,crying their eyes out.When the pastor asked them why the boys did't cry for their mother the boys said,"that women was't our mother.This women here(the maid) was our mother.She was the one who read us storys, played with us, and was there for us when we were sad.The other women was just Concerned with her career".

Great story.

[Bear]

Well Revan I cannot say factually whether or not my wife was concern of her poor standing with both myself and the church mostly because she didn't go to church.  I think she didn't go because she was constantly advised of her inadequacies as a wife and mother.  I do know after I remarried many people including several presidents said to me on the side they were amazed I took it so long and praised me for not letting my children down by divorcing before their 18 birthdays. I did have one Bishop warn me I was making a mistake when I married Honey but he later apologized.

One of the reasons I think they were so strong in their efforts to get me to reconsider is because they are right - you don't marry for convenience but for all eternity.  I think some realized their own failures too, the failure to be more of a companion to her and sow her by example where she was failing.  My ex wasn't well liked by anyone and to this day I doubt that there are 10 people she can say she knows except the ones she yahoos with now because its easy to lie to them but once they meet, according to my son, they run as fast as they know how or make some attempt to use her.

The Bear Family

[jm21-2]

P.S.: I heard a pastor tell a story once about when he was doing a funeral.He saw the children of the dead women pass by the casket with out a tear.A few months later he gave another funeral(for another women who was a Maid) and he saw the same 2 boys pass the casket,crying their eyes out.When the pastor asked them why the boys did't cry for their mother the boys said,"that women was't our mother.This women here(the maid) was our mother.She was the one who read us storys, played with us, and was there for us when we were sad.The other women was just Concerned with her career".

I agree with Doombug, great story. It's not just moms though. I was practically unattached to my dad after his career finally took off. He worked long hours, then would come home and work some more, or be so tired he didn't pay much attention to us, or would work on fixing the house up or something like that. When a kid gets used to going to someone else (like their mom or a nanny or a grandparent), bridging the gap can be nigh on impossible for the excluded parent. Neither parent should take their work so seriously they forget their family. Children want their parents more than a nice big house or some flashy new toy, whether they say so or not...ok, the toys can be pretty cool nowadays, but still.