Just Decriminalize It Already

[V_Man]

So pray tell what are the claimed benefits of criminalisation of marijuana? What have been the results in reaching these claimed benefits? Please do outline the wonderful cost v benefit results that have been achieved. There could well be some I have not addressed but you are yet to state what they are.


Since as you claim I have limited intelligence, I wait to be really impressed and enlightened by the research you are about to post here.


It will be a great opportunity for me to address what you describe as my idiocracy and lack of intelligence. What a wonderful self improvement opportunity for me! I can hardly wait.

[V_Man]

what is the drug policy in Australia?    Is it safe to assume that your comments are pertaining to Australia?  Are there quite a few marijuana and other drug users in Australia?     


Thanks,
Fathertime!

Marijuana use in Australia and New Zealand is one of the highest rates in the world. I am not sure how harder drugs compare.


Marijuana is decriminialised (but not legalised) in 2 states. What this means is that if you are caught with a small amout you get an on the spot fine - like a speeding ticket. In one other part of the country police have a policy of turning a blind eye. Like the way it works in Amsterdam. In other states it is still a criminal offense.

Random drug testing of workers in mines and construction sites, etc is standard practice.

One of the biggest problems we have in this part of the world is with methamphetamine.  Everything about this drug is a problem. Every aspect of this drug is a real headache for society - not just for the users. A very difficult and complex problem to solve indeed.
I have been personally attacked on two seperate occations by people high on methamphetamine.  On one of those I could have been killed.


Cocaine, heroin etc exist, particularly in Sydney and Melbourne but I read mixed reports about the extent of them. A friend of mine is ex Federal Police and he is pretty frank about what really goes on out there. I don't know how this compares though, since the USA must still be the biggest market for these drugs in the world.

[Ray]

I am sorry, I ran out of room to put more references in there but you get the picture. A quick unbiased review of the academic literature will give you the same results.

 
Unbiased?
 
 
Save your breath. We've heard all this same old tired leftist/doper propaganda over and over a thousand times.
 
 
Once again, it is quite obvious that you really have no clue how the law and criminal justice sysytem works in America...
 
 
BTW, a lot of your same stupid arguments can be used to make a case for legalizing child pornography... the war on child porn is a failure..the perverts are going to do it anyway...stop ruining the poor perverts' lives...we should just regulate and tax it... DUH!
 
 
Ray
 
 

[buencamino]

V_man that's a lot of reading buy thanks for taking the time to research the issue and post. Thanks also for presenting your arguments in a gentlemanly manner rather than resorting to hysterical name calling. Also interesting about drug use in Australia and New Zealand. Thank heavens meth hasn't caught on in Colombia.

[beulah]

V_man that is nice that you posted that study, which is incomplete as all studies are.  You must realize that other studies could be posted that would contradict  your study.  Your original point about "abosulute facts" is still invalid and yes your inability to synthesize opposing viewpoints does show ignorance, willfull or not.

[fathertime]

Marijuana use in Australia and New Zealand is one of the highest rates in the world. I am not sure how harder drugs compare.


Marijuana is decriminialised (but not legalised) in 2 states. What this means is that if you are caught with a small amout you get an on the spot fine - like a speeding ticket. In one other part of the country police have a policy of turning a blind eye. Like the way it works in Amsterdam. In other states it is still a criminal offense.

Random drug testing of workers in mines and construction sites, etc is standard practice.

One of the biggest problems we have in this part of the world is with methamphetamine.  Everything about this drug is a problem. Every aspect of this drug is a real headache for society - not just for the users. A very difficult and complex problem to solve indeed.
I have been personally attacked on two seperate occations by people high on methamphetamine.  On one of those I could have been killed.


Cocaine, heroin etc exist, particularly in Sydney and Melbourne but I read mixed reports about the extent of them. A friend of mine is ex Federal Police and he is pretty frank about what really goes on out there. I don't know how this compares though, since the USA must still be the biggest market for these drugs in the world.

thanks for the info vman...the policies sound similar to USA policies actually...how do you view Australian society as a whole?  Lazy, or hard working....happy/sad?  Unified or racial discord?   I'd say right now in the USA history we are at a point where we got to be careful about major changes, there is a lot of dis unification between different ethnicity's   but I think that can change in a generation or 2...in addition we got a pretty real problem with entitlements and laziness and crime, which i think Marijuana legalization would make a little worse.  what do you think?




Fathertime! 

[V_Man]

thanks for the info vman...the policies sound similar to USA policies actually...how do you view Australian society as a whole?  Lazy, or hard working....happy/sad?  Unified or racial discord?   I'd say right now in the USA history we are at a point where we got to be careful about major changes, there is a lot of dis unification between different ethnicity's   but I think that can change in a generation or 2...in addition we got a pretty real problem with entitlements and laziness and crime, which i think Marijuana legalization would make a little worse.  what do you think?

Fathertime!

You have the tough questions!
It is always difficult to generalise about a whole society. Between you and I, although many people do work hard it is common knowledge that employers prefer foriegn workers because they work harder and are not so self entitled.
Happy/sad - People are generally happy.
Unified or racial discord? - The majority of Australian's will deny this but there is in fact a low tolerance to other races and foriegners in general. Only a very few actually take this to the level of creating problems and they make it into the news. The majority are not like that at all. However Australia historically had one of the wrost records in race relations and there is still a subtle under current of an island fortress mentality.
Having said that, it is a lot more unified than the UK or USA. But I openly wonder if this because other races are in such minority in comparision to those countries.


One aspect you did not ask was unemployment. We never went into recession in the GFC and unemployment has remained low. Hence there is not a vast number of unemployed dole bludgers compared to the general population. Plus the cost of living here is extremely high. Hence if you do not have a job, life gets difficult very quickly.


As for your comments about entilements. The entitlement attitude here is off the charts in some respects. We have middle class welfare here. What this means is that taxes are very high and then the government gives hand outs and tax paybacks to select groups to buy votes. It becomes rather addictive - like has happeden in Europe.


As far as this relating to marijuana use. It doesn't have any bearing. The rate that people drink to excess and usa marijuana occurs regardless of any of these factors. On the other hand what is a far more serious health issue is the rising obesity. And that does relate to laziness and self entitlement.

[bcc_1_2]

 
BTW, a lot of your same stupid arguments can be used to make a case for legalizing child pornography... the war on child porn is a failure..the perverts are going to do it anyway...stop ruining the poor perverts' lives...we should just regulate and tax it... DUH!
 
 
Ray

Eh no... these sickos  aren't organizing and buying automatic weapons... it is much easier for us to deal with them.
Any analogy you wish to use needs to include automatic weapons and gangs. The western world needs to own up to the FACT that our mass consumption of these illegal drugs are what is getting Mexican police strung up by their boots to power lines. If you have a teen hooked on drugs... he/she is the PROBLEM not the victim. And after realizing just how bad it is... some druggie kid takes a back seat to the gang violence his or her actions support.
And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but rather than make your counter point you whine about it being liberal. When I look up liberal in the dictionary it doesn't say "wrong". So if you want to disprove something you might actually try disproving it.

[Fuzzyone]

Eh no... these sickos  aren't organizing and buying automatic weapons... it is much easier for us to deal with them.
Any analogy you wish to use needs to include automatic weapons and gangs. The western world needs to own up to the FACT that our mass consumption of these illegal drugs are what is getting Mexican police strung up by their boots to power lines. If you have a teen hooked on drugs... he/she is the PROBLEM not the victim. And after realizing just how bad it is... some druggie kid takes a back seat to the gang violence his or her actions support.
And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but rather than make your counter point you whine about it being liberal. When I look up liberal in the dictionary it doesn't say "wrong". So if you want to disprove something you might actually try disproving it.

  Maybe so but Ray used it as a example, how many children have had their dreams destroyed by these sick people? They don't have to use automatic weapons they used something even more powerful then mind.

[Ray]

And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone but rather than make your counter point you whine about it being liberal. When I look up liberal in the dictionary it doesn't say "wrong". So if you want to disprove something you might actually try disproving it.

  I’m sorry but his cut & paste extravaganza was loaded with BS liberal and pro-drug opinions. The legalization/decriminalization of banned drugs has traditionally been an argument of the left. And you can’t get much more liberal than the ACLU.
　
Attempting to bring race into the argument is a common liberal tactic. Calling our drug enforcement policies "racist" is the same old tired mantra of the left. When you disagree with someone, call him a racist! 　

An example of the BS presented: the implication that our laws target recreational users and unfairly hinder their ability to find employment, vote, gain access to affordable housing, etc… Very few recreational marijuana users are charged with felonies or locked up in prison. Currently, in most States, possession of small amounts for personal use is either not criminally enforced or results in a simple citation, similar to a traffic ticket, where you just mail in a small fine. The folks locked up in prison are not your typical recreational users… they are smugglers and pushers and don’t care who they hurt with their actions. The federal government doesn’t target recreational users.
　
One can copy and paste just as many or more examples of studies and opinions against legalization, but that will prove nothing. You can take just about any side in a popular debate and find literally hundreds of opinions on the Web to support your position.
　
V_man’s attitude is that anyone who disagrees with his opinions on drug legalization is either sticking his head in the sand, or is exhibiting insanity (madness). If he presents his personal opinions as just that, opinions, instead of attempting to portray them as "facts", then he might get a better reception to his viewpoints.
　
Ray
　

[Ray]

 
Eh no... these sickos aren't organizing and buying automatic weapons... it is much easier for us to deal with them.
Any analogy you wish to use needs to include automatic weapons and gangs.
 
The western world needs to own up to the FACT that our mass consumption of these illegal drugs are what is getting Mexican police strung up by their boots to power lines.

　
I’m sorry, but there is no rule that says my analogies have to involve automatic weapons. That is just silly!
　
You know, this tired old argument that America and Americans are responsible for the violence in Mexico is just so much BS.
　
The violence in Mexico is a Mexican problem. If the preponderance of Mexican politicians and law enforcement officials weren’t so corrupt, the drug gangs wouldn’t be enabled as they are. Mexican drug gangs are involved in more crime than just drug smuggling. And a lot of Mexicans use drugs too, so this argument that it’s our fault doesn’t hold water.
　
When the people of Mexico stand up to the drug lords, the gangs will start to go away, not before. Right now they effectively control most of the country.
　
Ray

[bcc_1_2]

Ray I find it interesting that clearly someone close to you has dealt with drug issues which you've used as your argument for keeping them illegal and then you turn around and bash the drug users' "liberal defenders" just saw a little irony there.
If you spent some time in a city controlled by gangs in Mexico or had family members in San Pedro Sula... you'd probably have the opinion that maybe the USA ought to turn off the money facet to these gangs with automatic weapons. Sorry I'm just not worried about my family getting shot up by Jerry the pedo.
As far as how much of Mexico is controlled by the gangs... they do have lots of  land but in my opinion a large part of the population is outside their control. Mexico City, Puebla, and others (including Cancun) don't really see the gang influence. So I suppose if you are talking territory land I could agree. But I sure do feel for the folks in Monterrey right now. That used to be a decent place. It's a real problem but I'm not going to pretend DF is a war zone... because it isn't.
Mexican politicans are dirty. There are a lot of problems in Mexico. The biggest problem just happens to be this nasty combination of drugs and automatic weapons. And our drug laws don't prevent anyone that wants illegal drugs from getting them. Those are a couple of realities of which I am certain.

[beulah]

　
V_man’s attitude is that anyone who disagrees with his opinions on drug legalization is either sticking his head in the sand, or is exhibiting insanity (madness). If he presents his personal opinions as just that, opinions, instead of attempting to portray them as "facts", then he might get a better reception to his viewpoints.
　
Ray
　

you are correct Ray.  Vman is substituting extreme certainty in his viewpoint and burying his head in the sand when it comes to anything other than what his beliefs are.  That is ignorant and arrogant.

[bcc_1_2]

you are correct Ray.  Vman is substituting extreme certainty in his viewpoint and burying his head in the sand when it comes to anything other than what his beliefs are.  That is ignorant and arrogant.

Okay... this is me doing my best beulah impression.
Show me anywhere where vman said he was burying his head in the sand?
 
 

[beulah]

Okay... this is me doing my best beulah impression.
Show me anywhere where vman said he was burying his head in the sand?
 
 

hahaha that was a good one considering our earlier exchange.  I used the term intentionally since vman likes it so much, and the tone of his comments on this subject.

[bcc_1_2]

hahaha that was a good one considering our earlier exchange.  I used the term intentionally since vman likes it so much, and the tone of his comments on this subject.

I know hahaha, and then i acted like a 3rd grade troll fully completing the earlier exchange adding absolutely nothing of value to a conversation regarding poor innocent third world people caught up in deadly gang violence.

[Micky]

"Since it is a "Simple fact" you should have no problem proving it.  So where is your unquestionable proof?
Your earlier statement about a "simple analysis" was idiotic, and your inability to see there are two sides to this issue shows a lack of intelligence concerning the issue." - Beulah

"you are correct Ray.  Vman is substituting extreme certainty in his viewpoint and burying his head in the sand when it comes to anything other than what his beliefs are.  That is ignorant and arrogant."  -  Beulah



You called VM out and asked for studies to support his statements.  He did exactly that and you continue to do your favorite thing,  name calling.

Most of your posts are putting down others and lack much,  if any substance.  Do you really believe that saying others are idiotic,  lack intelligence,  arrogant,  ignorant,  etc,  makes you smarter?  You do really love showing your azz.


Micky

[beulah]

Micky the bigmouth is back with an important contribution, which is what exactly?  My point is legitimate.  I'm strongly questioning vmans untenable position that he is right and there is no other side to the story.   You are still stewing about whatever it was you were loud and wrong about on the other topic.  Defend vmans position if you think he is right that there is no other side to the story.  You are incapable and won't.
  Your two quotes of mine were actually not name calling.  They were descriptive terms about a position.  You are still seeing a little red and  probably lack the objectivity to see the difference. 

[fathertime]

You have the tough questions!
It is always difficult to generalise about a whole society. Between you and I, although many people do work hard it is common knowledge that employers prefer foriegn workers because they work harder and are not so self entitled.
Happy/sad - People are generally happy.
Unified or racial discord? - The majority of Australian's will deny this but there is in fact a low tolerance to other races and foriegners in general. Only a very few actually take this to the level of creating problems and they make it into the news. The majority are not like that at all. However Australia historically had one of the wrost records in race relations and there is still a subtle under current of an island fortress mentality.
Having said that, it is a lot more unified than the UK or USA. But I openly wonder if this because other races are in such minority in comparision to those countries.


One aspect you did not ask was unemployment. We never went into recession in the GFC and unemployment has remained low. Hence there is not a vast number of unemployed dole bludgers compared to the general population. Plus the cost of living here is extremely high. Hence if you do not have a job, life gets difficult very quickly.


As for your comments about entilements. The entitlement attitude here is off the charts in some respects. We have middle class welfare here. What this means is that taxes are very high and then the government gives hand outs and tax paybacks to select groups to buy votes. It becomes rather addictive - like has happeden in Europe.


As far as this relating to marijuana use. It doesn't have any bearing. The rate that people drink to excess and usa marijuana occurs regardless of any of these factors. On the other hand what is a far more serious health issue is the rising obesity. And that does relate to laziness and self entitlement.

thanks for the info on Australia ...  a couple comments on your comments/analysis.  i do think it makes a big difference regarding race relations when the minorities are so small that their cultures are inconsequential...Your comments echo what I've heard/read regarding a little bit of hostility to other races in Australia.   


entitlements, that was interesting, so from what i'm gathering the taxes are rather high over there, at least for some people


regarding marijuana, Australian  society is much different than things here in the usa... i think the results of legalizing marijuana in austrailia could have a very different outcome then it could here in the USA.   to your last point about laziness, marijuana would certainly not lead to less of that, if anything it would make people more lazy/fat...that could be bad or in some respects good...


Fathertime!   

[V_Man]

Look Beulah, when you can articulate something specific on this topic and provide some references to support it then we can have a discussion. I am more than happy to have an informed discussion. So far I don't need to say much more because you are illistrating my point for me.

[beulah]

Look Beulah, when you can articulate something specific on this topic and provide some references to support it then we can have a discussion. I am more than happy to have an informed discussion. So far I don't need to say much more because you are illistrating my point for me.

What point have I illustrated for you?

 you have already stated the different viewpoints were madness.  You have brought the criticism on yourself.  4 or 5 members have made good logical points, but you have dismissed it all as madness.  You are guilty of extreme uninformed arrogance in this topic.

[V_Man]

Beulah, you still refuse to make a point and provide references.



Other people expressed fears that usage would increase so studies were provided to show that in fact usage decreases but more importantly and more clearly usage is increasing under the current approach.


I stated that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the defintion of madness.


I don't believe that I stated having a viewpoint was madness. If I did then I apologise.


However this is a serious issue that affects many people's lives and clinging to an uninformed and unsubstanciated viewpoint is much less than unhelpful.


If you can show that criminalisation of marijuana is producing wonderful outcomes for the billions of dollars it costs then please, please give us those references and research. I am practically begging you to do so.


Stop calling me arrogant or whatever. I already lost count of your name calling and personal attacks. Provide me with research and data and inform me.


Stop making vague references to some undefined thing that you think that someone else expressed a viewpoint on. Make your own clear point of fact and provide references. Just like I did.


Or you can continue as you are and bask in the esteem that brings you.

[beulah]

Beulah, you still refuse to make a point and provide references.

I don't believe that I stated having a viewpoint was madness. If I did then I apologise

vman my opinion is MARIJUANA should be legalized.  I don't want to provide references why.  It is not a simple issue and your decisiveness, and the way you dismissed what others had to say was a real turnoff. 

Maybe you are practising your man skills here for when your wife arrives, but you need to listen and ackowledge the other viewpoint, which haven't done  if you expect any respect for yours, even from people in the same corner

[Ray]

However this is a serious issue that affects many people's lives and clinging to an uninformed and unsubstanciated viewpoint is much less than unhelpful.


If you can show that criminalisation of marijuana is producing wonderful outcomes for the billions of dollars it costs then please, please give us those references and research. I am practically begging you to do so.

　
Question: Why the big whining concern for what happens in America?
　
If you want to change the drug laws in YOUR country, then have at it. But you are ignorant of how law and the criminal justice system works in America. Yes, it is YOU who are uninformed here. Aren’t you the guy who was ranting here a while back because we lock poor innocent folks up in prison for writing a bad check?
　
I pay taxes to support the criminal justice system in my country…you don’t, so how about stopping all the whining about what Americans are spending to fight illegal drugs. And who told you that all that money that we spent on drug enforcement was money wasted? Do you have any idea how many American children’s lives were spared because at least a good part of imported dangerous drugs were intercepted and destroyed? Do you think zero??? I personally feel that my tax money is well spent by locking up a bunch of stinking dope pushers and smugglers.
　
In America, we have 50 states and other jurisdictions with their own laws. We vote in each state to change our laws as we see fit. Sorry, but you don’t get to vote in my state’s elections, so please stop whining about our laws, ok? Did you know that two of our states just recently voted to decriminalize recreational use of Marijuana? Google it!
　
You keep complaining about the poor drug users/pushers/smugglers and how our laws affect their lives. You know what? If they don’t like the negative effects that drug criminalization is having on their lives, then there is a very simple solution for them… JUST STOP BREAKING THE LAW BY USUING ILLEGAL DRUGS! If you can’t stop because you’re physically addicted, then get treatment for your addiction! If you look around, you’ll find FREE treatment, paid for by us American taxpayers (not you).
　
There, was that so difficult to figure out? If somebody wants to take a chance on ruining their lives by using illegal substances to feel high, then that’s THEIR problem, not mine, and surely not yours!
　
For the drug smugglers and pushers who get caught and end up in prison, WHO THE F#%K CARES? Again, it’s not my problem and it’s not yours. It’s THEIR choice and THEIR problem.
　
For those druggies who can’t live with the drug laws here in America: have you considered going to another country to get high? May I suggest Singapore maybe, or Mexico if you want something closer? Go down there and try using drugs in their country and see how you are treated in their system when you get busted for bringing illegal drugs into their country.
　
Now if you want to rant on about the harsh drug laws in Australia, go for it. Let US worry about how we protect our children from that shyt in America.
　
I have dealt with the effects of illegal drug use all my adult life, so please stop with this stupid assertion that I or other Americans have an "uninformed" and "unsubstantiated" viewpoint on the subject, or that we are burying our heads in the sand by disagreeing with you, OK? Sound fair? Complaints?
 
 
Ray

[bcc_1_2]

The guy who ran McCain's Campaign has an opinion as well...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ab6bKaZHqU