First foreigner EVER to be convicted in Colombia on pedophile charges

[z_k_g]

My apologies for wasting bandwidth over here guys.

Zulu

[piglett]

ZKG & KFC,

Look guys, you're both well liked and respected here but maybe you should consider continuing your 'dialogue' between the two of you on this topic in PM's or yahoo. It's almost getting flamatory and when someone goes into forums here, it's about all they see. How about it guys? Or do you think we should bring Alabama boy back to moderate this discourse? Ha-ha.....

EXACTLY !!!


pig

[robert angel]

Robert, all the members were away & busy buying me, oops I mean their family x-mas gifts, so I kept it going until you guys return after buying me the gifts.

So what did you get me for x-mas?   

KFC, ZKG,  coconut palm trees at the southern continenial USA on Fort Zachery. If you guy can reroute this seemingly endless thread, and be good for Santa, I will send you each coconuts(seems apprpriD yellowtail snapper, but that doesn't stay fresh more than a day or so.I can't write any more im this blazing sun, so count your blessings!!!

[thekfc]

KFC, ZKG,  coconut palm trees at the southern continenial USA on Fort Zachery. If you guy can reroute this seemingly endless thread, and be good for Santa, I will send you each coconuts(seems apprpriD yellowtail snapper, but that doesn't stay fresh more than a day or so.I can't write any more im this blazing sun, so count your blessings!!!

I have  already conceded &  I am done.

Fort Zachery? Too close to Cuba for my taste. I am a northerner so I only go as far south as Midway, Ga.

[Ray]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Federal_laws

{Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2423(a)} forbids transporting a minor (defined as under 18) in interstate or foreign commerce with the intent of engaging in criminal sexual acts in which a person can be charged. This subsection is ambiguous on its face and seems to apply only when the minor is transported across state or international lines to a place where the conduct is already illegal to begin with. The United States Department of Justice seems to agree with this interpretation.

{Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2423(b)} forbids traveling in interstate or foreign commerce to engage in "illicit sexual conduct" with a minor. 2423(f) refers to Chapter 109A as its bright line for defining "illicit sexual conduct", as far as non-commercial sexual activity is concerned. For the purposes of age of consent, the only provision applicable is {Chapter 109A, 18 U.S.C. 2243(a)}. 2243(a) refers to situations where such younger person is under the age of 16 years, has attained 12 years of age, and the older person is more than 4 years older than the 12-to-15-year-old (persons under 12 are handled under 18 U.S.C. 2241(c) under aggravated sexual abuse). So, the age is 12 years if one is within 4 years of the 12-to-15-year-old's age, 16 under all other circumstances.

[mudd]

This thread is getting ridiculously long and worst yet, confusing. In a lot of countries, girls underage and very often with real or very real looking legal ID's will try to get you to have sex. Some of them work with the cops, setting up guys who go to horrific jails and may spend thousands of dollars to eventually get out. It's a big, all too common racket in many nations.

Just realize that you may have to simply. 'guess' whether she's really. 18 y/o or not or else risking a VERY expensive prison 'experience'. Eye ball em before you ball them and use common sense. Yes, 18 y/o unmarried if you're a foreigner IS the law.

Can we all move on now??

aaaaaa mennnnnnn 

wow, if i would have known that this tread would get so damm big, i wouldn't have posted it, sorry  Latin board

[thekfc]

aaaaaa mennnnnnn 

wow, if i would have known that this tread would get so damm big, i wouldn't have posted it, sorry  Latin board

mudd, that is just one thread that got out of hand - that should not refrain you from creating threads.

[fathertime]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Federal_laws

{Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2423(a)} forbids transporting a minor (defined as under 18) in interstate or foreign commerce with the intent of engaging in criminal sexual acts in which a person can be charged. This subsection is ambiguous on its face and seems to apply only when the minor is transported across state or international lines to a place where the conduct is already illegal to begin with. The United States Department of Justice seems to agree with this interpretation.

{Chapter 117, 18 U.S.C. 2423(b)} forbids traveling in interstate or foreign commerce to engage in "illicit sexual conduct" with a minor. 2423(f) refers to Chapter 109A as its bright line for defining "illicit sexual conduct", as far as non-commercial sexual activity is concerned. For the purposes of age of consent, the only provision applicable is {Chapter 109A, 18 U.S.C. 2243(a)}. 2243(a) refers to situations where such younger person is under the age of 16 years, has attained 12 years of age, and the older person is more than 4 years older than the 12-to-15-year-old (persons under 12 are handled under 18 U.S.C. 2241(c) under aggravated sexual abuse). So, the age is 12 years if one is within 4 years of the 12-to-15-year-old's age, 16 under all other circumstances.

It would appear that KFC conceded too early.  I think the link Ray provided shows that the law is not as cut and dry as zulu has said it is.   It would appear that 16 is the age where the restrictions end.  Way too young for me but maybe not for some young men in their mid 20’s. 

It is good to have the facts on the table so people can make the choice they want, armed with ACCURATE information.  Unless Ray’s post is shown to be inaccurate, it will stand as the bellwether post in the thread. 

Fathertime!

[z_k_g]

FT, respectfully,

The Federal statute link addresses interstate crimes, the limit of authority for the Federal government domestically.

UN International treaty establishing 18 as minimum age, if you are under 18, you are a child.
Article 1,
and Article 34 prohibits illegal sex with that child

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/crc.htm

This treaty applies to any citizen (of a country that has signed the treaty) who travels abroad to another country.  And, to clarify, this treaty does not effect a person who lives in that country, he/she is only bound by their local age of consent and other relevant statutes.

The Federal statute that defines the illegal sex act and enforces the International treaty for US citizens is
primarily U.S.C. §§ 1591, 2421, 2422, and 2423

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/trafficking.html

at the bottom of page read the FAQ section

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/trafficking_faqs.html

Zulu

[fathertime]

Zulu,
What you have stated unequivocally is that 18 is always the cutoff age, which I’m not convinced is the case in light of what Ray has posted. 
Before this thread was created, I always assumed that 18 was lowest age a man could legally have relations with an overseas lady, but after reviewing all that was said it still appears to me that 16 is the limit in some circumstances.   The second part of Ray’s link appears to be addressing ‘foreign commerce’. 

Either way, there are 1000’s of laws interpreted dozens of ways, I’m not convinced that this type of law isn’t looked at in that manner too.


Fathertime!

[thekfc]

It would appear that KFC conceded too early. 

ft, I concede because I knew that this would go nowhere.

I did a thesis on the subject in grad school, there are clauses & have amendments to it,  it is a touchy & very difficult subject - this is not as clear cut as some think it is.

[z_k_g]

FT,

Read the current Federal statutes.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/trafficking.html

The legal age is 18 for any US citizen traveling outside of the country.

There are only the current Federal statutes concerning this issue, not 1000's of laws or interpretations and the law is very clear.

The link I provided if is from the US department of Justice.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/trafficking_faqs.html

Trafficking and Sex Tourism FAQs

Q. If I travel abroad and have sex with a minor, is that a crime? What if I don't know that the girl is a minor?

    A. Yes, it is a crime for a United States citizen or permanent resident to travel abroad for the purpose of having sex with a minor and it is a crime for a United States citizen or permanent resident to actually have sex with a minor while abroad. If the sexual activity with a minor is a commercial sex act, then the defendant may establish the defense that the defendant reasonably believed that the person with whom the defendant engaged in the commercial sex act had attained the age of 18 years.

Q. What if an American citizen or national travels overseas on an ordinary trip, not intending to engage in sex with minors, but at some point during the trip engages in sex with a minor?

    A. In this case, the American citizen or national may be subject to prosecution under 18 U.S.C. § 2423(c). Even if the person did not have the intent to engage in sex with a minor at the time he or she left the United States, such intent at the time of travel is not necessary. For example, an American citizen or national who travels to a foreign country without any such intent, but who engages in a commercial sex act with a person under 18 at some point during his stay in that foreign country, may be subject to prosecution.

Q. Does there have to be interstate travel or communications before child prostitution can be prosecuted at the federal level? I thought prostitution was generally handled by state and local authorities?

    A. Federal authorities work in tandem with local authorities in the investigation and prosecution of many crimes, including child prostitution. 18 U.S.C. § 1591, which specifically covers child prostitution, does not require interstate travel or communications. Accordingly, even if the criminal conduct was within one state, federal prosecution may be appropriate. In order for federal jurisdiction to apply, however, there must be an effect on interstate commerce.

Q. I am a travel agent. Do I have criminal liability if one of my client's goes overseas on a sex tourism trip?

    A. It is a criminal activity to knowingly arrange, induce, procure or facilitate for profit the travel of a person when you know that the person is traveling for the purpose of engaging in illicit sexual conduct with minors.


Zulu

[Dan Las Vegas]

YAWN.....please guys, give it a rest and lets get back to something we can all agree on, Latinas!!!!!!!!

[z_k_g]

YAWN.....please guys, give it a rest and lets get back to something we can all agree on, Latinas!!!!!!!!

Dan,

I agree. 

This subject is not really relevant to Latinas.

Because of the nature of the subject, it always generates a lot of discussion and debate.

Zulu

[thekfc]

YAWN.....please guys, give it a rest and lets get back to something we can all agree on, Latinas!!!!!!!!

I completely agree.
This subject should be dead & buried.

This is a very touchy subject & also difficult interpret.
There are laws that have been passed to protect the rights of childrens/minors but there are clauses & amendments to the laws.

While in college a few students &  myself did a paper on the subject (it was not part of our field of study - extra curriculum).
I though that this was a "clear cut law" until the professor pointed out a few things to us.  It is not as simple as you thing, there are clauses & amendments added to it - some that are not even mention or explained in some on the various "laws on the subject" online postings.
If your are not in that field of study - you may not recognize them, know them or understand them.

Anyone following the case of Julian Assange?
He leaked alot of documents & made a few Government "angry" at him. They wanted to arrest him & put him away but they have nothing to go by.......yet.

There is one crime that they saw that they can arrest him on - a sex crime.
The Swedish authorities went to INTERPOL (yes Interpol) & Interpol issued an European Arrest Warrant (meaning he can be arrested anywhere in the EU). He was arrested (turned himself into Scotland Yard).

The charge against him - "sex without a condom, or sex with a condom that broke" but there is a little more to it than that. That appears to be a violation of a Swedish law.
If someone can be arrested for that - who know what you can be arrested for.

My advice is, if you are going to have sex with anyone under 18 or someone you are not sure of their age - "JUST DON'T DO IT". To be safe - go with someone you can verify is over 21 years old. If one law do not get you - an other one will.

Everyone should be careful out there, use common sense, use very judgment & above all follow the rules & laws of the country that you are visiting.

Let us all agree on one thing - let us put this subject to rest - Let it be close & buried and we all move on.

[Ray]

Guys,

I did not post that link to applicable federal law on this subject for the benefit of Zulu, even though he has repeatedly demanded references to laws that he is convinced do not exist. I posted that only for anyone else interested in the real facts.

He has and will continue to ignore any and all evidence posted to support an opposing position, which is fine with me because he feels that he is only discouraging sex with minors, which should be the goal of all of us adult men here anyway. But he continues to ignore key parts of even his own “evidence”, as in the Justice Dept FAQ he presentd. The key to the under 18 overseas law in those FAQ’s is the term “COMMERCIAL SEX ACT” (PROSTITUTION).

That law exists and was meant for sexual predators, pedophiles, and sex tourists. IT DOES NOT COVER EVERY SEX ACT WITH GIRLS UNDER 18, as has been claimed here.

I fully agree with kfc’s advice to simply stay away from any girl suspected of being under 18, and better yet under 21 to be safe.

I will ignore any further hogwash offered on this subject… LOL!

Peace, out…

Ray