Family Authority

[daytrader]

"All authority has broken down except for government.  Without authority there is utter chaos.  The human being needs authority.  The more you break down parental, teacher and religious authority the stronger you build up government authority.  You must know this....People don't like authority....Where do your get your notions of right and wrong?" - Dennis Prager

This is a 34 minute streaming audio or a podcast you can download by Dennis Prager

http://townhall.com/TalkRadio/Show.aspx?RadioShowID=3&ContentGuid=8bf7909f-c626-4382-b5db-6bd0e9c115d0

Differences between latin and American cultures is evident.  When importing a latina and her children into America, be forewarned, there will be cultural forces attacking the authority of the Mother and the Father (you and your spouse). 

According to our legal eagle here and others, there seems to be a high incidence of divorce among MOB marriages. 

Regardless of your beliefs, I would highly recommend downloading and saving this podcast to your hard drive - the concepts that Prager talks about are very relevant to having a harmonious relationship in America and will make you aware of the many pitfalls that lie before you, he is a very intelligent dude (forgive me I am engaging in Sean-Speak here) that gets to the point and explains how he gets there. 

This thread is for your thoughts and other ideas/input on the concepts included. 

DayTrader

[RJS]

Deep down, I'm a totalitarian dictator. My kids better be careful or summer camp will be a Siberian gulag. 

[jm21-2]

EDIT: [from the opinion of a fairly young person]
As I'm listening:

1. In what school do you call teachers by their first name?
2. Where do teachers dress like students?
3. Lowering the voting age: not my generation's fault. And they raised the drinking age? Old enough to handle a ballot but not a beer? Definitely not my generation's idea.
4. I said plenty of intelligent and witty things as a kid. If my kid didn't, I'd be a little dissapointed.
5. When I was a kid I never called adults by their first names. Never heard of it happening.
6. Why should a kid respect the authority of a strange adult? Maybe if they ask the kid to come inside for some special fun?
7. What is the purpose of questioning authority if you can't defy it? Like a gun without a bullet.
8. What God has said is right and wrong has changed how many thousands of times over the years? And where did we find "good authority" to replace the "bad authority?" Let me think...how about the human heart that he ridicules?
9. Parents and teachers lose their authority over children when they lose the respect of children. As it should be. The asme goes for any authority figure. "Practice what you preach." If a preacher is a sinner, who would listen to him? If a leader breaks his own laws, what citizens will respect him? Why shouldn't people disrespect authority that has proven itself unreliable?

The guy is out of touch. Authority has multiplied and punishments have gotten more strict if anything.

Example:

I had some drinks with friends when I was in high school. A cop pulled up by us and asked if we had drank any alcohol. I said yes, being honest, even though I wasn't even feeling a buzz. So...
1. Got hauled into the police station
2. Parents got called in, very angry - catch hell once you get home
3. Get a ticket + court fees that cost more than the ticket
4. Get suspended from school
5. have to go through an alcohol treatment program

All for having 2 drinks in my late teens. What would have happened when this guy was a kid I wonder....Hmmm...maybe...

1. Cop tells him to get on home
2. Walks to his friend's house
3. Grabs a couple of his friend's dad's beers to finish the job

[chizz]

9. Parents and teachers lose their authority over children when they lose the respect of children. As it should be. The asme goes for any authority figure. "Practice what you preach." If a preacher is a sinner, who would listen to him? If a leader breaks his own laws, what citizens will respect him? Why shouldn't people disrespect authority that has proven itself unreliable?

 

I agree with this. If you don't have the respect of your children, you will never have any control over them. The reason children nowadays do not have any respect for adults or their parents is because they don't fear them, like my generation did. I'm 38, and if you're around the same age,(especially if you're african american) you got you butt whipped, with anything momma, grandma, daddy could get his hands on. It would be called child abuse now, but that's how things were back then. Parents didn't take any kind of intolerant, dissrespectful behavior from their kids. The kids knew this, and kept in-line. Now, Parents want to be their kids friend instead of trying to be a parent, and when kids start seeing their parents as friends, they see them as equals, thus if they don't want to listen to their parents, they won't.
chizz

[daytrader]

EDIT: [from the opinion of a fairly young person]
As I'm listening:


7. What is the purpose of questioning authority if you can't defy it? Like a gun without a bullet.
8. What God has said is right and wrong has changed how many thousands of times over the years? And where did we find "good authority" to replace the "bad authority?" Let me think...how about the human heart that he ridicules?
9. Parents and teachers lose their authority over children when they lose the respect of children. As it should be. The same goes for any authority figure. "Practice what you preach." If a preacher is a sinner, who would listen to him? If a leader breaks his own laws, what citizens will respect him? Why shouldn't people disrespect authority that has proven itself unreliable?

The guy is out of touch. Authority has multiplied and punishments have gotten more strict if anything.

#9 is not addressed by Prager; matter of fact, the opposite point is what Prager talked about...that is...from the outset, lots of forces within American society take away ANY authority of parents/teachers before the child enters the home or school classroom.   Prager's copious examples clearly explained that. 

#8 - A basic understanding of  human history from the Renaissance period to Moses will disagree with the writer's supposition, IMO.   There are over 1000 partial copies of the New Testament that can be traced back to within 200 years of Christ (vs 7 known copies of Plato's or Socrates work); the basic meanings of Scripture are clear and have been clear for 500+ years (from the Renaissance Period forward).   

A major lack in "public schools" is an absence of 'classical education'  being taught which most Americans were taught up through 1960 or so. Starting with the Greeks to the Victorian era used to be the basis of most everyone's liberal arts knowledge.  Now,  it is next to nonexistent or totally gone as of today. 

#7 - You can question (and sometimes challenge) authority; if you defy authority you go to jail - a difference which the writer does not seem to discern. The analogy is not in the slightest appropriate to his example, IMO.  A better example might be "your right to freedom of expression ends when your fist touches the tip of my nose". 


[sigh]....it's just about useless to even discuss these concepts in general public because many folks lack a classical liberal arts education.  It's not a put down, it's that the two sides of the conversation are basically not speaking the same language, IMO.   

DayTrader   

[jm21-2]

#9 is not addressed by Prager; matter of fact, the opposite point is what Prager talked about...that is...from the outset, lots of forces within American society take away ANY authority of parents/teachers before the child enters the home or school classroom.   Prager's copious examples clearly explained that.

I've listened to a few whining old men such as him, and still don't have a clue what he's talking about. If you can't muster authority today, you probably didn't deserve to have authority back then either.

Maybe capital punishment, as Chizz said? But capital punishment isn't really that effective unless it's used sparingly and properly...the same as every other form of punishment.

#8 - A basic understanding of  human history from the Renaissance period to Moses will disagree with the writer's supposition, IMO.   There are over 1000 partial copies of the New Testament that can be traced back to within 200 years of Christ (vs 7 known copies of Plato's or Socrates work); the basic meanings of Scripture are clear and have been clear for 500+ years (from the Renaissance Period forward).

"Human" history? I think you mean European history. That aside...there wasn't even the holy trinity when Christianity was started. Now we have dozens of protestant denominations who all have slightly (or greatly) different beliefs. How "basic" are we talking about here? And if the meaning came from, say, a catholic interpretation of scripture, is it really scripture still, or is it Catholic teachings?

I have a Christian friend who doesn't believe in original sin, and believes you can only get into heaven if you live a good and moral life (note: accepting Jesus doesn't matter at all). I'm sure he can find plenty of biblical quotes to support him, though many Christians would disagree with him.

A major lack in "public schools" is an absence of 'classical education'  being taught which most Americans were taught up through 1960 or so. Starting with the Greeks to the Victorian era used to be the basis of most everyone's liberal arts knowledge.  Now,  it is next to nonexistent or totally gone as of today. 

You may have noticed that there is an ocean between America and the European continent, and that many Americans do not have any European ancestors. Quite frankly, [snip] Europe. The less we have to do with it, the better. We should have cut that umbilical cord generations ago.

I studied international literature when I was younger....Arabic Odes, short stories from South America, ancient Chinese literature, folk stories from Africa....the best from every part of the world. To me, that is what America is all about.

#7 - You can question (and sometimes challenge) authority; if you defy authority you go to jail - a difference which the writer does not seem to discern. The analogy is not in the slightest appropriate to his example, IMO.  A better example might be "your right to freedom of expression ends when your fist touches the tip of my nose". 

What he, and you (correct me if I'm wrong), seems to encourage is organized, polite protestations. Like a peaceful march or demonstration. Using the the rights given to you by the government or constitution, and the processes introduced by both, to achieve your aim. That will get you a nice little bone from the government. Oh boy!

[sigh]....it's just about useless to even discuss these concepts in general public because many folks lack a classical liberal arts education.  It's not a put down, it's that the two sides of the conversation are basically not speaking the same language, IMO.

If a "classical liberal arts education" includes bible studies or brainwashing, sure. Maybe rote memorization and repitition of established meanings? Otherwise you're using the same reason that every human has.

[daytrader]

#9 - I've listened to a few whining old men such as him, and still don't have a clue what he's talking about

That's evident.

Now we have dozens of protestant denominations who all have slightly (or greatly) different beliefs. How "basic" are we talking about here?

(a) As mentioned before, I'll repeat it again.  "the Renaissance"...I'll be more specific, start with the 'Reformation'. 

(b) In the Keep It Simple, Stupid category, Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."   John 14:6 

Considering that 90% to 95% of Jesus' contemporaries were illiterate, I would accept what what is stated (from Matthew to Revelations) at face value, they did, and most of the known world was evangelized in one generation (that's Good News!).  The archeological, historical and sociological evidence is overwhelming; many athiests have been converted to Christ, once they honestly sought to disprove it (and were proven wrong); however, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
(Only Bill Clinton would question what the meaning of "is" is...)

You may have noticed that there is an ocean between America and the European continent, and that many Americans do not have any European ancestors.


Without those evil French, America would not have won the Revolution; probably 90% of all immigrants up through WWII were from Europe. 

The less we have to do with it, the better. We should have cut that umbilical cord generations ago.

I thought we're all supposed to get along, like Rodney King sez!  Open Minded?  Tolerant?  Respectful of Others?  The Golden Rule?

I studied international literature when I was younger....Arabic Odes, short stories from South America, ancient Chinese literature, folk stories from Africa....the best from every part of the world. To me, that is what America is all about.

That's one weird American history book, if I may say so!  I doubt that history book has been printed yet. LOL

What he, and you (correct me if I'm wrong), seems to encourage is organized, polite protestations. Like a peaceful march or demonstration. Using the the rights given to you by the government or constitution, and the processes introduced by both, to achieve your aim. That will get you a nice little bone from the government. Oh boy![

 American institutions have authority over different areas of our lives; we're innocent until proven guilty (unless you're Michael Vick, LOL) ..and we have the right to peacefully redress  our grievances through public petition.  Anything else will get you arrested, as it should.  In the case of misconduct by authorities, (NiFong), there will be justice (eventually). Also, our rights come from God, not from human institutions, therefore, no 'authority' can take away our rights without due process because they are owned by us and they originate from God (Declaration of Independence).   

If a "classical liberal arts education" includes bible studies or brainwashing, sure.


One more time, I'll define it.  It's from the writings the Greeks to the Victorian Age. Every single college in the United States that offered a 'liberal arts' degree taught this core curriculum up to the mid-70's.

Yup, there is human history before you were born!  imagine that!

Good luck in your future learning,

DayTrader

[jm21-2]

Blue=jm21-2

Red=daytrader

#9 - I've listened to a few whining old men such as him, and still don't have a clue what he's talking about

That's evident.

Some things you're better off not knowing I guess.

You may have noticed that there is an ocean between America and the European continent, and that many Americans do not have any European ancestors.


Without those evil French, America would not have won the Revolution; probably 90% of all immigrants up through WWII were from Europe. 

And without the West African Empires, Europe might well still be in the dark ages, as the renaissance wouldn't have been possible. Look how well the Africans were treated by their great European friends.

And if it hadn't been for the French, Vietnam wouldn't have happened. If the Europeans had grown a pair (and been less anti-semitic), Hitler might never have been a threat. Europe hosted both World Wars...well...I'm sure you can think of other great things Europe has done.

The less we have to do with it, the better. We should have cut that umbilical cord generations ago.

I thought we're all supposed to get along, like Rodney King sez!  Open Minded?  Tolerant?  Respectful of Others?  The Golden Rule?

Sure, treat them as other nations, not parent-nations.

I studied international literature when I was younger....Arabic Odes, short stories from South America, ancient Chinese literature, folk stories from Africa....the best from every part of the world. To me, that is what America is all about.

That's one weird American history book, if I may say so!  I doubt that history book has been printed yet. LOL

Where did you see anything about American history in that statement?

What he, and you (correct me if I'm wrong), seems to encourage is organized, polite protestations. Like a peaceful march or demonstration. Using the the rights given to you by the government or constitution, and the processes introduced by both, to achieve your aim. That will get you a nice little bone from the government. Oh boy![

 American institutions have authority over different areas of our lives; we're innocent until proven guilty (unless you're Michael Vick, LOL) ..and we have the right to peacefully redress  our grievances through public petition.  Anything else will get you arrested, as it should.  In the case of misconduct by authorities, (NiFong), there will be justice (eventually). Also, our rights come from God, not from human institutions, therefore, no 'authority' can take away our rights without due process because they are owned by us and they originate from God (Declaration of Independence).   

If you've ever been to a trial, it's actually more like guilty until proven innocent.

Not going to even bother with the rest.


Yup, there is human history before you were born!  imagine that!

Yep, and all of it was good!!! Wait...no. No, it wasn't very good. Though I do agree it must have been nice living in America 40 years ago, when Europe was a pile of smoking rubble, the USSR hadn't become a world power, the Japanese economy was a bit down, China wasn't feeling so well, etc...

[daytrader]

Hear something stupid coming from a young person's mouth?  Gee, I wonder why?

Vin Suprynowicz is always a good read; he writes for the Las Vegas Review-Journal.  More common sense is uttered in one paragraph of his writings than 4 Democratic Presidential debates (including inane You-Tube questions). 

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/8795192.html

DayTrader


"Dear Mr. Suprynowicz -- You saved my daughter's educational life.

"Three years ago when she was in seventh grade I read your articles about the schools and read (John Taylor) Gatto's books. Not only was my daughter's education awful at the school in Clark County, there were so many social problems that it got kind of scary when they bused in a bunch of no-child-left behind thugs who had failed at their school and were coming in to ruin a school that was doing okay until they came. Additionally, she was losing the love of learning due to the mind-numbing, low expectation instruction. I took her out of school at the end of seventh grade two years ago.

"I am proud to say that at the age of 15 she can pass a GED (though Clark County won't allow her to do so until she is 17) and has made high scores on the SAT. I took the plunge and took her to CCSN this summer where she took the placement test and passed it so well that she's starting college level courses for credit in August. Our plan is to see her through an associate degree there and then switch to university for the last two years and the bachelors.

She is a lovely girl and has not been saddled with all the social ills of public school. She is well-educated and fairly well adjusted for a teenager.

"At the rate we are going she will be out of college at age 21, have a far better education than if we had left her in the public schools. Statistics prove that the kids coming out of public school to college are failing and ill-equipped to handle college work.

"Please keep urging people to remove their children from the system that actually promotes juvenile delinquency through their way of doing things. It's not as hard to home school as you think. And each day there are more and more options to assist parents in educating their children.

"Thank you, Vin. If not for your dedication to the theme in your articles my daughter might be a very different person today. -- C.A.

[jm21-2]

I'll refer you to the shallow gringos thread, where this was discussed.

1. Complains about low expectations, yet brags about his daughter being able to pass the GED at 15. Anyone can do that. I know a guy who dropped out of high school at the beginning of his freshman year, smoked pot for 3 years, and could pass the GED at 15.
2. College classes are, if anything, less challenging than classes at a decent public school. They are by no stretch of the imagination challenging. Especially as it looks like this daughter is going to a community college, which is a joke.
3. Anyone who graduates from college in 4 years or more is just having a good time and enjoying themselves, or working. 3 years is normal for people who want to get through at a decent clip. Graduating college at 21 is no big deal, especially if you start some classes at 17.
4. Although some home-schoolers are earnest and successful, in some cases the parents do not have the time or skills to properly teach their children. In other cases, bad parents say they are home-schooling their kid, as a way to let their kid drop out of school.

I don't disagree that home schooling can be very successful, in an academic sense, if there is a decent stay-at-home parent/teacher, but they tend to be a bit sheltered and naive.

[daytrader]

I'll refer you to the shallow gringos thread, where this was discussed.

1. Complains about low expectations, yet brags about his daughter being able to pass the GED at 15. Anyone can do that. I know a guy who dropped out of high school at the beginning of his freshman year, smoked pot for 3 years, and could pass the GED at 15.
2. College classes are, if anything, less challenging than classes at a decent public school. They are by no stretch of the imagination challenging. Especially as it looks like this daughter is going to a community college, which is a joke.
3. Anyone who graduates from college in 4 years or more is just having a good time and enjoying themselves, or working. 3 years is normal for people who want to get through at a decent clip. Graduating college at 21 is no big deal, especially if you start some classes at 17.
4. Although some home-schoolers are earnest and successful, in some cases the parents do not have the time or skills to properly teach their children. In other cases, bad parents say they are home-schooling their kid, as a way to let their kid drop out of school.

I don't disagree that home schooling can be very successful, in an academic sense, if there is a decent stay-at-home parent/teacher, but they tend to be a bit sheltered and naive.

"I am proud to say that at the age of 15 she can pass a GED (though Clark County won't allow her to do so until she is 17) and has made high scores on the SAT."

....[a] it's his kid, he can educate her as he sees fit as to what is the best alternative;  a parent showing initiative to help his child to be her  best you give NO you credit for
....(b) the kid is doing well (scoring well on the SAT) is very impressive, which you give no credit for
....[c] the kid will likely be an asset to tommorrow's society instead of in jail, on welfare, or dependent on the welfare state, which you give you no credit for

"I don't disagree that home schooling can be very successful, in an academic sense, if there is a decent stay-at-home parent/teacher, but they tend to be a bit sheltered and naive."

.....[d] suggest you dump your home school bigotry - Most of the recent National Spelling Bee champs were home schooled -- & home schooled graduates are aggressively being sought out by some of the best colleges in the USA. ....ummm, the purpose of childhood & successful parenting IS  to shelter a future adult until they have the experience and knowledge to overcome some naivete  -- I've met several home schooled kids and they are MUCH more ready to take on life's ups and downs than the welfare-state-dependent dumb-downed robots coming out of government indoctrination centers (called high schools).   

I sincerely doubt you know ANY christian home schooled kids; if you did, you would likely be very impressed with them and their parents.  And how about the Liberal Nanny State refunding their property taxes for government schools which they don't use?

Government schools are ALL about Money and Power; the State wants your Money and they want as much Power as possible.  It's called Socialism.  Shut Up, pay your taxes and ship your kid to taxpayer paid indoctrination centers. 

Also, and this is a biggie, there is NO correlation between government schools and quality of life; back in the late 1800's, before government schools, America's quality of life was MUCH better than now (crime, out of wedlock births, % of Americans self sufficient)...now, almost 50% of Americans get a check from the government. 

All a government check does is breed future dependency  -- Teach a man HOW to fish, instead of GIVING him fish. 

DayTrader

[catz]

I sincerely doubt you know ANY christian home schooled kids; if you did, you would likely be very impressed with them and their parents.

 I know a few families that have done/are doing this and they are very fine, upstanding, smart, and respectful kids. This comes from the integrity and dedication of the parents. Sadly, there are plenty of parents around that would be a disaster as home schoolers.

All a government check does is breed future dependency  -- Teach a man HOW to fish, instead of GIVING him fish.

Totally agree with you. Too much of a "you owe me" attitude in this country.

[utopiacowboy]

I may have missed it but does Daytrader have any children?

[jm21-2]

"I am proud to say that at the age of 15 she can pass a GED (though Clark County won't allow her to do so until she is 17) and has made high scores on the SAT."

"high scores"...and what does that mean? 700 total? Who knows.

....[a] it's his kid, he can educate her as he sees fit as to what is the best alternative;  a parent showing initiative to help his child to be her  best you give NO you credit for
....(b) the kid is doing well (scoring well on the SAT) is very impressive, which you give no credit for
....[c] the kid will likely be an asset to tommorrow's society instead of in jail, on welfare, or dependent on the welfare state, which you give you no credit for

I'm saying she's not exceptional. I'll give her credit for doing as well as most families with decent parents.

.....[d] suggest you dump your home school bigotry - Most of the recent National Spelling Bee champs were home schooled -- & home schooled graduates are aggressively being sought out by some of the best colleges in the USA. ....

As I said, successful academically. If my child was home-schooled I would expect them to be reading at a college level by 6 or 7. If they went to public school they'd be 10 or 11 by the time they reached that level of competency.

ummm, the purpose of childhood & successful parenting IS  to shelter a future adult until they have the experience and knowledge to overcome some naivete  --

Partially agree, partially disagree. Although I think most kids nowadays are thrust out alone at 18 and _many_ aren't prepared for this new-found freedom, the childhood years are the time for mistakes to be made. Further, our legal system is much harsher on adults. If my kid's going to get in trouble for something, I want it to be when he's 14, not 19. When he's 14 he gets a light punishment, that can be expunged, from the law...and a harsh punishment at home. S/he learns more from the experience and there are fewer long-term ramifications. At 19, the opposite is true.

I've met several home schooled kids and they are MUCH more ready to take on life's ups and downs than the welfare-state-dependent dumb-downed robots coming out of government indoctrination centers (called high schools).   

Hmm...but would they know how to get food stamps? (joking)

I sincerely doubt you know ANY christian home schooled kids; if you did, you would likely be very impressed with them and their parents.  And how about the Liberal Nanny State refunding their property taxes for government schools which they don't use?

My next door neighbors the entire time I was growing up were home-schooled, for starters. Their mom struggled with it because she was very poor at math, and she felt like she wasn't up to the task sometimes. They wanted to send their children to a private catholic school, but there weren't any in the area (and would have been expensive to boot), and they didn't want their kids to have a religion-neutral education at a public school.

Were their kids morally superior in some way? No. They were nice enough, and I played with them a lot, especially when I was younger, but they had few friends...maybe home-schooling would work better in a different region where there's a tighter community for finding friends in.

Also, and this is a biggie, there is NO correlation between government schools and quality of life; back in the late 1800's, before government schools, America's quality of life was MUCH better than now (crime, out of wedlock births, % of Americans self sufficient)...now, almost 50% of Americans get a check from the government.

Those are pretty limited measures for quality of life, hahaha....Talk to some of the early settlers in Nebraska (my ancestors) and see how their quality of life was. It was hard as hell.

I really don't see how any of those things contribute to quality of life. They contribute to quality of the state more than anything.

All a government check does is breed future dependency  -- Teach a man HOW to fish, instead of GIVING him fish. 

Agree 100%. Seems a bit of a random comment though.


Rushing a child through education, depriving them of friends and normal life experiences, keeping them sheltered from the outside world, indoctrinating them with  your ideas of morality instead of letting them figure it out for themselves....that's not a recipe for a well-rounded human being, imho.

[Ray]

... indoctrinating them with  your ideas of morality instead of letting them figure it out for themselves...

OMG! How dare those evil parents even think of "indoctrinating" their little kiddies with their ideas of morality!

That's all we need...more juvenile delinquents running amok because their lazy, wimpy parents didn't provide them with any moral guidance. Yep, just let them figure all that morality junk out for themselves.

Well, At least they have their Hollyweird idols to look up to and act as their moral compass... Britney, Lindsay, Paris, ... 

[jm21-2]

Ray - Obviously parents should give their kids moral guidance, but some people take it too far and impose rigid moral standards with very little leeway, and provide it in a way that is not readily adaptable to real life circumstances.

Like I recently heard a saying that essentially said a parent would rather have their child die than lose their virginity. That kind of standard is hard to cope with for many children, and prevents them from asking parents important questions about sex, birth control, etc. It's those sorts of rigid standards that, imho, provide little guidance and create all sorts of problems for children, who often fall in the gray area between. It's like teaching them specific laws rather than the principles behind them.