This is Shocking

[Micky]

What I find "shocking" is the continued policy of the U.S. in it's hapless,  ineffective and costly (lives and money) "War on Drugs".  The U.S. may spend the money on the Drug War,  but it is the producing/supply countries that pay with the lives and total disruption of it's society.  Thirty plus years of absolutely no "real" progress,  yet they continue down the same road.  I find this shocking,  without logic,  absurd,  or,  just plain stupid.  The U.S.,  as well as most of Europe,  deem that they are "protecting"  their own citizens from their own personal choices.  WTF? 
I do not pretend to have the answers,  but as in most of our lives,  when we do something that does not work, we find another way that will.
 
Micky

[utopiacowboy]

You're looking at this the wrong way. The War on Drugs is a huge success. It keeps drugs illegal and allows for huge bribes to be paid to law enforcement and politicians. It also allows for worthless scum like the DEA (believe me I have first hand knowledge of their worthlessness) to have nice big budgets and a lot of toys to play with. Nothing in the US is done in the interests of ordinary citizens who are usually brainwashed or duped into thinking that the powers that be are working on their behalf. Same with the War on Drugs.

[V_Man]

Well I live on an island and we are doing no better at curbing illegal recreational drugs either. The "war on drugs" is over. It has been lost. It failed. We should face up to it.
The prohibition of canabis is a particular failure here. The use of canabis in Australia and New Zealand is one of the highest rates in the world. Prohibition is a total failure here and is not the least bit helpful. Actually is has been decriminalised in some states. I used to think that decriminalisation was the way to go for all states. The criminalisation of canabis users does a lot more damage than the drug ever did by far. Having thought about it more carefully I now think full legalisation is the way to go. I don't think we will ever get the health message across to people while it is prohibited. All that does is support organised crime.

Then when I look at South and Central America, our problems seem so trivial.

I don't know what the answer is for harder drugs like cocaine. I don't envy you guys with a common land boarder between the suppliers and the producers. We can't even deal with the problem here when we are surounded by oceans. A rethink is definately in order.

For canabis, prohibition has been a complete failure, world wide. We should face up to it. The longer we deny it the more people get hurt.

[fathertime]

What I find "shocking" is the continued policy of the U.S. in it's hapless,  ineffective and costly (lives and money) "War on Drugs".  The U.S. may spend the money on the Drug War,  but it is the producing/supply countries that pay with the lives and total disruption of it's society.  Thirty plus years of absolutely no "real" progress,  yet they continue down the same road.  I find this shocking,  without logic,  absurd,  or,  just plain stupid.  The U.S.,  as well as most of Europe,  deem that they are "protecting"  their own citizens from their own personal choices.  WTF? 
I do not pretend to have the answers,  but as in most of our lives,  when we do something that does not work, we find another way that will.
 
Micky

I am for giving the citizens to make their own choice about drugs.  If drugs were legalized, I would like to see increased penalties for other crimes, like robbery, or violent offenses.  Once a person stomps on another person, when they are caught they should be brought to a more severe form of justice that is proportionate with what they have done.  If a person commits an armed robbery or commits an random assault the penalties should be more severe than they are currently.  Many sexual offenses involving young children should be life in prison or the death penalty, in my opinion. 


Our govt, should not be our nanny.  Their job shouldn't be to micromanage our individual decisions which only affect us.  There job is not to be sure we always make the decision deemed to by them to be the very best one.  We are allowed to make 'mistakes' if we choose to.  When it gets to the point where it is illegal to sell a 24 once soft drink, it tells me that our govt is way out of control. 

Fathertime! 

[dtibbet]

bingo bingo bingo and bingo. all of you are correct...when is this ever gonna change.....

[V_Man]

Our govt, should not be our nanny.  Their job shouldn't be to micromanage our individual decisions which only affect us.  There job is not to be sure we always make the decision deemed to by them to be the very best one.  We are allowed to make 'mistakes' if we choose to.  When it gets to the point where it is illegal to sell a 24 once soft drink, it tells me that our govt is way out of control. 

Fathertime!

I agree completely. Far too many people seem to think that if there is a problem in society it can be solved with a law. That is stupid thinking with stupid results.
People should be allowed to make mistakes and then be held accountable for the consequences.
If someone does a crime it should not be a mitigating factor that they were on drugs at the time of the offense. They choose to be on drugs then they made a dumb decision. Both things were chioces.

Here we have had police warn parents for allowing their child to walk down the road to the shops:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-threat-to-parents-on-children-walking-alone-20120208-1rezj.html

WTF?
So on the radio people are now saying that would mean it was technically an offence to allow your child to walk to school.

Today I discovered that in many parts of North America it is actually illegal to allow your child to walk to school:
http://www.life360.com/blog/kids-walking-to-school-alone-could-be-illegal/

Another mother in Vancouver, British Columbia, was at home worrying for her first grader not knowing that school officials prevented him from walking himself home — six houses away.

I understand this issue has come up in the UK as well.

Good grief!

We really need to speak out against this nanny state mentality. It is very destructive.

[Ray]

I am for giving the citizens to make their own choice about drugs. If drugs were legalized, I would like to see increased penalties for other crimes, like robbery, or violent offenses.

　
So how about children who use dangerous drugs?
　
Does a 13-year-old have the "right" to make his/her own choice about using drugs?
　
Who is going to protect out children from themselves if all these illegal drugs are going to be allowed into the country?
　
Personally, I consider drug smuggling and drug distribution to be violent crimes. All this stupid whining about how we have lost the war on drugs because some people keep using them anyway, and we should therefore just surrender to the dopers and let them have their way, is a cowardly cop out IMHO.
　
Without the efforts of the dedicated law enforcement people in this country who have been working hard to keep illegal drugs out, and lock up those who profit from poisoning our children, likely thousands more of our youth would be dead now. I say good for them and keep on busting the dope peddlers!
 
I don’t give a rat’s ass about some doper whining that he can’t get his pot legally. He can stick his drugs up his ass for all I care. I will NEVER, repeat NEVER vote for any law to legalize marijuana or any other illegal drug.
　
Perhaps if some of you guys had a young teenage son or daughter overdose on drugs or ruin his or her life because of drug abuse, you wouldn’t be so sympathetic towards the worthless dopers in our society. Just something to think about…
 
　
Ray
　
 

[fathertime]

　
So how about children who use dangerous drugs?
　
Does a 13-year-old have the "right" to make his/her own choice about using drugs?
　
Who is going to protect out children from themselves if all these illegal drugs are going to be allowed into the country?
　
Personally, I consider drug smuggling and drug distribution to be violent crimes. All this stupid whining about how we have lost the war on drugs because some people keep using them anyway, and we should therefore just surrender to the dopers and let them have their way, is a cowardly cop out IMHO.
　
Without the efforts of the dedicated law enforcement people in this country who have been working hard to keep illegal drugs out, and lock up those who profit from poisoning our children, likely thousands more of our youth would be dead now. I say good for them and keep on busting the dope peddlers!
 
I don’t give a rat’s ass about some doper whining that he can’t get his pot legally. He can stick his drugs up his ass for all I care. I will NEVER, repeat NEVER vote for any law to legalize marijuana or any other illegal drug.
　
Perhaps if some of you guys had a young teenage son or daughter overdose on drugs or ruin his or her life because of drug abuse, you wouldn’t be so sympathetic towards the worthless dopers in our society. Just something to think about…
 
　
Ray
　
 

Well Bozo, I sympathize with your position on this issue.   In my mind it is not an easy decision to legalize drugs.  I also realize in the short term it could lead to more underage deaths.   Here is the one way I look at it, my teenage girl has seen me drink beer, but I’m responsible in the way I do it and I realize that I am providing an example for her.  It is ok to drink a beer responsibility.  Now if other parents are going to use alcohol or other drugs irresponsibly and glamorize or minimize getting drunk in front of their children, then they are very much responsible for what they are promoting.   
 
It also becomes a matter of governmental resources.  I don’t know the numbers exactly but it appears our society is spending on drug enforcement on all levels including incarceration, but I got the feeling it must be well into the billions.  If we deployed all that money in other ways and starved out the gangs that are making millions on selling drugs, that would be great.   In addition if revenues are received in the sales of drugs that money could also be deployed to round up the bad guys and take them off the streets for good.    A very severe penalty can be meted out to an adult distributing these drugs to minors could also be effective.  I suppose any plan will be imperfect.    Personally I don’t have a big problem with adults that want to damage their own lives by using drugs just so long as it remains their problem and not mine.   There seems to be a lot of societies were drug use is not a big problem , but with many of the adults acting like idiots in ours, our impressionable kids still think it is cool or something to be stoned.   
 
To answer your questions.  I say that anyone under  18 or 21 would not be able to use legally.  So NO they do not have the right.  That seems like a reasonable law to me.  The adults around the child are the ones responsible to protect the child.  If those adults are unwilling to do that, they should be prosecuted.   I know several people who have destroyed a large  part of their lives due to alcohol and drug use.  These friends are in their 40’s now and are not fathers themselves, which seems very right to me.  If these people want to destroy their lives and die prematurely without having a kids and a wife, that is fine,  and almost seems like ‘survival of the fittest’  at work here.  As cruel as it might be, diehard heavy duty druggers die early and often don’t want kids and that is good for society at large. 
Overall, I think adults should be given the choice.


Fathertime!

[utopiacowboy]

　
So how about children who use dangerous drugs?
　
Does a 13-year-old have the "right" to make his/her own choice about using drugs?
　
Who is going to protect out children from themselves if all these illegal drugs are going to be allowed into the country?
　
Personally, I consider drug smuggling and drug distribution to be violent crimes. All this stupid whining about how we have lost the war on drugs because some people keep using them anyway, and we should therefore just surrender to the dopers and let them have their way, is a cowardly cop out IMHO.
　
Without the efforts of the dedicated law enforcement people in this country who have been working hard to keep illegal drugs out, and lock up those who profit from poisoning our children, likely thousands more of our youth would be dead now. I say good for them and keep on busting the dope peddlers!
 
I don’t give a rat’s ass about some doper whining that he can’t get his pot legally. He can stick his drugs up his ass for all I care. I will NEVER, repeat NEVER vote for any law to legalize marijuana or any other illegal drug.
　
Perhaps if some of you guys had a young teenage son or daughter overdose on drugs or ruin his or her life because of drug abuse, you wouldn’t be so sympathetic towards the worthless dopers in our society. Just something to think about…
 
　
Ray
　
 

Dedicated law enforcement? Been drinking the Kool-Aid? In our town the local law enforcement are some of the biggest druggies around. In fact the guy who gave DARE education (drug resistance program) turned out to be in cahoots with his girlfriend teacher and supplying cocaine to everyone. A typical story.


Most DEA guys are druggies. I was once at a big bust where several hundred pounds of grass was seized and the cops were going to make sure that they drove by other cops' houses who were known users so they could cry when they saw what a bust they had made. Sometimes it's hard to tell which guys are the dealers and which guys are the DEA guys. Many times they are the same guys.


Your belief in the war on drugs is touching though, like a small child believing in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.   


As for kids, tobacco and alcohol do far more harm than mj and we haven't banned them. Oh wait we did try that.........never mind.

[Ray]

Your belief in the war on drugs is touching though, like a small child believing in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.   

 
Well, I'm beginning to believe that you are a fairy... LOL!
 
 
 
 

[Ray]

I say that anyone under  18 or 21 would not be able to use legally.  So NO they do not have the right.  That seems like a reasonable law to me.  The adults around the child are the ones responsible to protect the child.
 

 
Sounds good, BUT...
 
It is now illegal for minors to use drugs, alcohol, or tobacco. But if those are readily available, minors will get them and use them regardless. Using crack, crystal, or other heavy drugs can and do kill, so why put that stuff in front of our children just because some dope heads want the freedom to do whatever they please? Screw the dopers!
 
By making that garbage legal, our society will go nowhere but down the toilet.
 
You say you want to severly punish adults who distribute to minors, so now we're right back to locking up drug pushers. I say for the ones in jail now, leave them right there to rot, and build more jails if need be to lock up the rest. I think the cost of incarcerating these scum is money well spent if it saves the lives of thousnads of our children.
 
Declaring the war on drugs as lost, while advocating legalizing dope, is not sending the right message to our children. That only shows that we are cowards when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect them.
 
 
Ray
 
 
 

[Micky]

Ray,

I have absolutely no problem with your stance on the "War on Drugs".  It is your opinion and as valid as anyone else's.
I have a 14 yo son,  I do not rely one bit on any government to protect him,  guide him or give him any direction what so ever.  I do the best that I can and whether he turns out one way or the other is dependant on his own choices as he gets older.
One of the points of this topic is the "War on Drugs" is an abject failure.  This past year the "War on Drugs" pasted the trillion dollar mark since its implamentation in the mid 70's.  There has been no significant change in supply or usage.  The cost of imprisonment in the U.S. is approx.  60 billion a year. Statistics say that approx half the prison population is non violent,  drug related crime.  Your saying to build more prisons,  lock more people up is money well spent "if it saves thousands of children's lives", the point is,  it is NOT saving anyones life.
The price in violence in the LA/SA countries is off the charts.  That is tens of thousands of people that pay the ultimate price,  with their lives. 
I do not know how you come to the conclusion that you are showing young people that we are "Cowards" if we give up the "War on Drugs".  Is there some positive message that I am missing?  Are we showing them how "Brave" we are by continuing a policy that is very expensive,  in money and lives,  and has not produced any tangable results?
I do not know the answer,  but building more prisons,  locking more people up and spending tons of money has not shown to be effective what so ever.

Micky

[Ray]

I have a 14 yo son, I do not rely one bit on any government to protect him, guide him or give him any direction what so ever. I do the best that I can and whether he turns out one way or the other is dependant on his own choices as he gets older.

 
Mickey, I had to rely on the authorities to try to keep drugs away from my teenaged daughter. At 14, she was in no position to make rational choices on dangerous drug use.
 
Without government involvement in drug interdiction, arresting and incarcerating drug dealers, etc., my only choice in protecting her would be for me to personally blow away any dope peddlers trying to bring harm to her. Now would that be a viable option? I don’t think so. Every father cannot personally patrol the borders for drug smugglers or take out the pushers on the streets. What a mess that would be!
 
My concern isn’t for the dumb adult dopers who ruin their own lives or kill themselves, but for the innocent children who fall victim to drug peddlers and producers. They don’t give a rat’s ass about our children. I wish all of the dope peddlers would meet the same end as Pablo Escobar, with his stinking brains blown out.
 
I understand that many Colombians treated him as a hero, but I suspect that those folks had no sense of morality, only a selfish desire to get what they could for themselves.
　

One of the points of this topic is the "War on Drugs" is an abject failure. This past year the "War on Drugs" pasted the trillion dollar mark since its implamentation in the mid 70's. There has been no significant change in supply or usage. The cost of imprisonment in the U.S. is approx. 60 billion a year. Statistics say that approx half the prison population is non violent, drug related crime. Your saying to build more prisons, lock more people up is money well spent "if it saves thousands of children's lives", the point is, it is NOT saving anyones life.

　
I strongly disagree. How do you know the war on drugs has had no effect on supply or usage? I believe that all of that dope interdicted and destroyed would have made the problem even worse if it had gotten in.
　
How do you know nobody’s life was saved? I believe that thousands more would have died without the efforts to stem the tide of drug importation and sale. It only stands to reason.
　
And your perceived sympathy for all of those "nonviolent" drug offenders in prison is ridiculous IMO. Those are not casual drug users in prison, but mostly hard drug pushers, the same idiots selling drugs to our children. I do not consider that "non-violent" crime, but closer to child abuse or murder. Drug abusers are rarely sent to prison for simply using.
　

I do not know how you come to the conclusion that you are showing young people that we are "Cowards" if we give up the "War on Drugs". Is there some positive message that I am missing? Are we showing them how "Brave" we are by continuing a policy that is very expensive, in money and lives, and has not produced any tangable results?

　
When I hear all this whining about how hard it is, how expensive it is, how some drug cop down in Texas was corrupt, or any and all of the other excuses why we should give up on the war on drugs and surrender to the dopers, I consider that a form of cowardice. Sometimes you have to do what is right and moral to protect our children despite the costs. Just giving up because it isn’t easy is sending the wrong message to our youth.
　
Sure we can do things better, more cost-effectively, and change our tactics. But that’s not what I’m hearing here. I’m hearing a defeatist attitude because it is easier to just give up and surrender and make all that crap legal. That’s not me!
　
I would support both more funding for effective drug rehab for our addicts, and more bullets for A-holes like Pablo Escobar!
　
Ray
　

[V_Man]

I think we need to seperate MJ from other drugs. I think the whole topic gets a little confused when we refer to MJ on a par with the harder drugs. The health problems with canabis defintely are not addressed by prohibition.
Where Canabis has been decriminalised, usage among the young has acutally decreased. It just isn't cool any more and people talk openly about the negative aspects of it.

IMHO harder drugs are a different issue.

Secondly it is fundamentaly flawed to say that legalisation would permit kids to use drugs. It is not legal for a 14 year old to drive  car, even if he has spent most of his life in cars. There are many things that children are not permitted to do. It is up to parents to teach their children how to identify and deal with high risk aspects of the modern world. The government is not a good parent.

[fathertime]

 
 
By making that garbage legal, our society will go nowhere but down the toilet.
 
 

Well I don't know if usage increases among people leaning towards not using in the first place.  I would imagine those that do use, will use more of the drug if they have easier access at lower prices.  Not making drugs illegal might also take away the 'forbidden fruit' aspect and mystery about the drug, and allow the young to see the drugs for what they are...a good way to ruin a life and look like a fool.   I really like those new very visual anti-smoking commercials.  Those commercials with the very ill counteract the impression of cigarettes being glorious in any way.  I think they hit home with the young. 


Fathertime!