Asking about a prenup.

[pablito]

Well, as you saw from my trip report, things have gone well, an continue to do so as we chat every day and we'll be meeting again in a week's time.  One thing that the immigration lawyer asked me is if we'd be getting married, and I said that this was the general idea, that it might happen sooner rather than later given how things are going.  Also, Canada has done away with the fiancee's visa, if she is to come here permanently we would have to marry in order for me to be able to sponsor her.  So the lawyer suggested that a prenup would be a good idea, and that this is something you want to talk about earlier rather than later.


Now I don't know if such a thing exists much in Latin America (specifically Costa Rica in my case), and how my suggestion of one would be viewed.  Especially in terms of how she could perceive (not to mention react emotionally) to my asking to essentially plan on how the divorce will go before we're even married. 


She does understand thanks to me talking about my divorce ($50k+ in legal fees, ongoing whenever anything happens, which it always does, from time to time) and the general situation here how unpleasant it is.  She is always been very good and easy to talk to about stuff, and we have talked about all kinds of potentially contentious issues without always agreeing, but without every getting unpleasant. 


Still, it's not something I'm looking forward to raising at all, and I can imagine it'll be even less fun for her when I do, so I was hoping y'all might have some advice on how to best do this. 


My notion is to simply note how legalistic it is, how without such an agreement we would be subject to the whims of the judiciary which could impose conditions neither of us want, that it is not a sign of distrust in her or lack of confidence in the relationship, but rather a trust building exercise, and that since we both have responsibilities to our kids we owe it to them to protect ourselves, as we each have a house, car, pension, etc.

[fathertime]

well pablito, i can see where you are coming from becuase i do think it would very awkward to start talking about prenups when everything is going so well....i suppose since you have had a rather unpleasant experience from the past it can help you bring up the subject for your new lady...If you feel you need to have a prenup then I guess you just have to be honest and the approach you talked about seems reasonable enough.  Maybe you can just be casual about it, over a beer, that way it doesn't have to be a big downer. 


Fathertime! 

[Jeff S]

Ah, your lawyer suggested you pay him a lot of money to generate a document that says.... what....  that she's not entitled to half of your bass boat? I'm sure he did. Tell you what, for only half of what he'll charge, I'll give you piece of paper that will be just as impressive in from of a jury as his. Not only that, but it'll have a gold seal. How's that sound?


Sorry, just playing devil's advocate. Why do you want a prenup? What are you trying to accomplish? What do you have to protect? What are you afraid of?


If you're not sure - don't marry her in the first place.

[Ray]

 

My notion is to simply note how legalistic it is, how without such an agreement we would be subject to the whims of the judiciary which could impose conditions neither of us want, that it is not a sign of distrust in her or lack of confidence in the relationship, but rather a trust building exercise, and that since we both have responsibilities to our kids we owe it to them to protect ourselves, as we each have a house, car, pension, etc.

　
A "trust building exercise"?
　
That sounds like you are trying to avoid the real issue. Why not just come clean and tell her the real reason?
　
That you don’t trust any woman enough to risk your hard-earned assets on the chance that this marriage doesn’t work out and you lose half of what you own to some gold digger and her barracuda divorce attorney?
　
Like most men considering a pre-nup, isn’t that what you are really worried about? I think she might understand that reasoning in view of your sharing with her your past experience with the divorce courts…
 
But I do agree with your attorney that discussing this stuff earlier rather than later is a good idea. I would give her a written outline of what you want in a pre-nup and see what she thinks. Encourage her Insist that she discuss this with a local attorney of her choosing.
　
 
Just curious...do they require Canadians to sign any kind of legally binding affidavit of support, similar to what we have in the States, before they will approve a spousal visa?
 
Ray
　

[Jeff S]

I don't know the laws of Canada, but in the US, particularly in community property states like California, assets owned prior to marriage are considered separate if certain conditions are met - for instance, if you own a family farm passed down from your parents before you were married, your wife isn't entitled to half of it if you get divorced. It's considered separate property. She is entitled to half of the increase in value since you were married to when you divorced. It if went down in value, the negative also gets credited to her as well. In places like California, generally prenups are only warranted when there is some unusual circumstances, like ownership of a partnership or corporation, or to ensure your children from a previous marriage receive their inheritance in the event you die while married to your new wife.


I agree with Ray, absolutely discuss things with a lawyer so you know your rights and with her so you understand her ideas on the matter and communicate your interests to her. To go through it just as a trust building exercise, though, reads like an underhanded attempt at control - at least she may view it that way.   

[InnocentVixen]

Now I don't know if such a thing exists much in Latin America (specifically Costa Rica in my case), and how my suggestion of one would be viewed.  Especially in terms of how she could perceive (not to mention react emotionally) to my asking to essentially plan on how the divorce will go before we're even married.

I don't know if they have them over there but over here (MX) you can marry by "separacion de bienes" which might be something similar, I googled it and it seems over here at least there is also a part of the paperwork you do right before getting married that includes "capitulaciones" and that is where you can specify whatever you want, sort of like a prenup.


I should add that it is not common for people to actually use them or to be married by separacion de bienes to start with since it shows lack of trust and as far as I know they are mostly used to shut the family up if one of the 2 happens to be considerably wealthy to avoid the family giving the spouse hell. I also know it doesn't really protect you completely but as I understand the prenup will not either right?


Most women will know what a prenup is however, if only from watching tv/movies, depending on your lady's personality it is how she will take it, I am pretty open minded and not easily offended. In fact a few years ago, my then boyfriend asked me if I would be willing to sign one, my answer was that if it was something that would put his mind at ease I would be happy to look into it and made it clear he should not expect me to sign anything without reading it or consulting a lawyer to add a bit on my side to it (should only be fair right?). He never mentioned it again.


So I would say that unless you are pretty sure she has an accurate concept of what a prenup is, it might be a good idea for you to look into it first in her country so you can use the right terms when you talk to her about it and be honest about your reasons for wanting it if you do.

[V_Man]

Definately raise the issue with her. Simply tell her you have a responsibilty to your children to make sure the two of you have one. Pretty simple really.

[charlie640]

Tell her it is like Car Accident Insurance,  you have it,  BUT,  you hope you never need to use it.   

[mudd]

1st,this should have been discussed way early in the dating process.


2nd, if you live in a community property state like good old California, you better get a prenup, if you have a business or assets. most guys forget, that if you keep your assets separate, bank accounts, property, investment  ect, they are safe as long as you do not co mingle them, which is very difficult not to do over time.
 
but.........   here is what most guys really forget, say you have a house and one investment property, say a house you rent out. the day you get married, they are both worth say, $ 300,000. three years later, they are worth now $ 500,000, and you get divorced, unless they are listed in the prenup and it states that " any accumulative gain in vale is still considered sole and separate property" your soon to be ex wife is entitled to 50% of the gained value of the property,  meaning your gonna have to write her a check for $ 100,000.
 

[Jeff S]

Not as simple as just adding a clause - especially in a state like California. There's no simple way to opt out of the community property laws.

[mudd]

Not as simple as just adding a clause - especially in a state like California. There's no simple way to opt out of the community property laws.

if you put it into a bullet proof prenup, which my friend did ( you met him once jeff, when we went to tj to look at manufacturing circuit boards there)  he had it in his prenup," any appreciation of any assets were his and not part of community property", his ex couldnt get anything from him. saved his butt thats for sure because she was nuts!!!  lol

[Jeff S]

Oh yeah - I remember. Interesting - must have had a good lawyer.