Puncuality

[Researcher]

      I'm not gonna try and make excuses for the attitude and habit of being late constantly.I can say this from a viewpoint of someone that has lived and worked in Mexico. Trying to be on time and keep deadlines there almost drove me nuts.When you work somewhere that the phones work 50% of the time, trains derail and you lose tooling you have been waiting on or a semi truck carrying parts flips on its way to the plant(frequent occurances) its very difficult to get things done on time. I survived that by coming up with creative solutions and not caring so much about deadlines. I was forced to become more laid back. When I first started travelling there I would run around the airport looking for my ride who always was at least an hour late every time.Pretty soon I learned to go to the airport bar, get a beer,sit back and watch all the uptight gringos frantically looking for their rides.


       Researcher

[utopiacowboy]

I would add corruption and undermining the rule of law among the major structural problems in the 3rd world. Sure, these issues exist in the US, but IMO, the US society does as good a job at not tolerating corruption and upholding the rule of law as one could hope from humans. The laid back attitude in the 3rd world is further down the list IMO of structural problems and may in fact be a symptom of pervasive corruption and disregard for the law from the top down, bottom up that has created a viscous cycle that is tough to break out of.

The US is declining daily on this issue. Eventually there will be no difference regarding corruption between Colombia and the US. Madoff, Enron, the banks, Wall Street - there is a huge and growing culture of corruption in the US - most citizens do not feel that their elected representatives do anything but feed at the trough for their corporate masters.

[Colgando]

The US is declining daily on this issue. Eventually there will be no difference regarding corruption between Colombia and the US. Madoff, Enron, the banks, Wall Street - there is a huge and growing culture of corruption in the US - most citizens do not feel that their elected representatives do anything but feed at the trough for their corporate masters.

I would say those people cited are the exception and not the rule in the US, unlike the 3rd world. I would say most Americans want to work hard, do things the right way, of course, there has been much opportunity in the past where someone's hard work can payoff. I would say the overwhelming majority of US citizens wants to work hard and not lie, cheat and steal their way to the top. Maybe as it becomes increasingly harder to be successful following the rules in the US, more corruption will creep in at the grass roots. I would say politics in the US has been corrupt since the IRS was established however, with advances in Media, 24 hour news cycle, it is very visible now a days and the scandals are larger, nothing unusual to me, there have been numerous ponzi schemes in the past, Madoff's was just the biggest in history fueled by record economic expansion in the US, maybe some people are becoming aware of the way politics and money work together. I guess I am comparing the US to frontier economies where the differences in the societies and people are stark and clearly seen. Unemployment and underemployment at 20% or less makes for a better society with less corruption, unemployment at 80% or higher provides a lot of fuel for corruption. US unemployment at 9% and underemployment at 17% still provides fuel to reward hard work for the overwhelming majority of Americans however, if we keep heading to higher and higher unemployment, people will start to cut corners, compromise values, undermine the rule of law to support their families, as is the case in the 3rd world, a matter of survival, IMO.

[El flaco]

The US is declining daily on this issue. Eventually there will be no difference regarding corruption between Colombia and the US. Madoff, Enron, the banks, Wall Street - there is a huge and growing culture of corruption in the US - most citizens do not feel that their elected representatives do anything but feed at the trough for their corporate masters.

It is getting worse.  Here is MA the last 2 Speakers of the House were convicted of felony tax evasion and felony obstruction of justice(Flaherty and Finneran).  The most recent speaker, Sal Dimasi resigned and was indicted on felony extortion, mail fraud and wire fraud.  Chuck Turner and Diane Wilkerson were convicted and sent to jail for 3 years on bribery charges.  It's a cesspool.  These politicians think they are above the law.  These are just the ones who are caught.  If you see 3 cockroaches you can bet there are many more hiding in the cracks.

[dennislevy]

Vman et al.
 
I m exactly like you, I try and treat everyone in Colombia in a polite and respectful manner and I give everyone the benefit of the dounbt UNTIL they disrespect me...and then IDGAFF.
 
Colombian woman have any number of cliches they use to describe a future novio or esposo (steady boyfriend or husband?. They say yo quiero un hombre que respetarme, que valorme. I want a man that respects me, that values me.
 
BUT many women are blind to the idea that respect is a street with two arrows....because they say that men don t want to hear the truth and men dont respect the, And its their rationale for not making an effort to show courtesy and respect by calling to say that they will be late or they re not showing up.
 
Because many women have very little, but their beauty, their bodies and the clothes on their back...they fall back on their pride....And unfortunatley some women choose what we see as negative ways to demonstrate their pride. or they simpley gnore the situation...because it will go away.
 
A man may be left standing in a mall wating for a call that she will never make...and she wont answer hiis calls BUT the situation has gone away and she doesn t have to confront it or admit responsbility for anything she did or didnt do.
 
People try to push each around in this country....people cut into long lines in fornt of bank teller cages, people interrupt a transaction at a cash register (thats supposedly permissable, if its just a question) people interrupt each other constantly, many women have deficient listening skills and attention spans.
 
One thing that irks me is when I give a woman the right of way on a sidewalk and sidewalk is not accurate, and many public sidewalks in Colombian towns and cities are broken, cracked, uneven heigjhts,more diirt then concrete  and crumbling,,,and a woman or two women will walk by without even saying gracias.....An older woman, 50 years or older will usually smile and say gracias.....but younger women....have no manners. Same goes for holding a door.....and I ll say to their receding backs.....de nada señoras, señoritas.....Almost never has a woman turned around and said...perdoname, señor...gracias
 
And the rationale for this is that a Colombian woman does not talk to men in the street....And of  course from my point of view, I m not trying to pick up a woman in the street, I m displaying courtesy and being a gentleman, and that merits a simple gracias.
 
But if you ask a availalbe straight Colombian woman what is her definition of gentlemanly behavior...her response is more along the lines of what a man will do for her.....whether or not he is detaillsita...concerned with details....little gifts or flowers, and that he won t push her for sex.
 
But they dont see that a stranger can demonstrate gentlemanly behavior or they should treat man with courtesy UNTIL he shows that he isn t a gentleman.
 
I used to give women the benefit of the doubt if they no showed me.....I dont anymore.
 
 
 
 
 

[Micky]

Corruption -

I do get a little peeved about the finger pointing about corruption in the "third world" (I also bitch about the term - third world).  The politicians in the U.S. are the epitome of corruption.  They just make the rules and laws so that it is legal for them to steal.  PAC funds,  campaign contributions,  trips,  gifts and dinners from lobbists.  Nepotism,  contracts awarded to those who are in bed with them.  In the industrialized nations they have made it "legal" to buy and own a politician.

Punctuality -

I think that there is a little bit of projecting "our" concepts and values of time and social behavior onto "their" cultural norms.  I do not date,  if I did  a no show,  no call,  knowing me like I do, it would be bueno pues chao.

Micky

[Alabamaboy!]

      I'm not gonna try and make excuses for the attitude and habit of being late constantly.I can say this from a viewpoint of someone that has lived and worked in Mexico. Trying to be on time and keep deadlines there almost drove me nuts.When you work somewhere that the phones work 50% of the time, trains derail and you lose tooling you have been waiting on or a semi truck carrying parts flips on its way to the plant(frequent occurances) its very difficult to get things done on time. I survived that by coming up with creative solutions and not caring so much about deadlines. I was forced to become more laid back. When I first started travelling there I would run around the airport looking for my ride who always was at least an hour late every time.Pretty soon I learned to go to the airport bar, get a beer,sit back and watch all the uptight gringos frantically looking for their rides.


       Researcher

Exactly. During the past year my wife has endured days with no electricity, others with no internet service, others with no water in her barrio for one reason or another (none of them included not paying the bill). And with all the mess and problems with washed out streets, horrendous traffic at times,  etc. it seems that they are forced to be more laid back. If those things happened to me in the States with the frequency that they happen in a lower estrato barrio in Colombia, it would drive me crazy.

But I am trying to learn to be more like a Colombian in that respect. And she is trying to learn to be a little more like a gringa....only in that respect! And after some time now we have pretty much met up with a happy medium.

[Alabamaboy!]

A Colombian woman once explained to me...that one of the reasons for deliberate unpunctuality is to control a man...to keep him waiting, and it is something that a young girl learns, when her first novio comes to collect her at her parents home for a date.
 
A Colombian female agency owner once told me that one of the biggest gripes that her female clients had with gringos...was that we werent patient with women...and if there was something that we didnt like...then we went on to the next one.
 
I understand both of these points of view.......but frankly, its my time and money, Im spending money to take the woman out. And I ll demosntrate pateince IF a woman tells me something believable and not the standard 10 bull[snip] excuses.
 
When I make the effort to show up for a date it is precisely because I want to start off on my best foot....and to show the woman that I value her and her time. If she doesn t want to at least give em the courtesy of calling me,  then she can do whatever she wants with any other man.
 
Some of said to me. well I didn t have minutes...
 
And the lack of personal responsibilty is so pervasive that there are multitudes of women who walk around with one cell phone or two...but always claim that dont have minutes.
 
You couldn t spend 200 pesos with someone in the street to call me?
 
And at that point I m pretty much done.
 
And Ive come to the conclusion that mnany colombianas don t feel as if they are responsible for the nuts and bolts of constructing a relationship. It may be that they dont see dating as something where both people demonstrate courtesy to each other,,,or they have been crapped on so much...they don t care.
 
And if they show me that for whatever reason....THEY don t care, I renew my membership in V mans IDGAFF (I dont give a flying f....) club.
 
NEXT!
 
 
 
 

What I learned to do very quickly in Colombia is to not get too crazy about anything when you are just dating. If you know some Spanish and have been to Colombia a few times, you should have a long list of available women to call. Or if you do not, it should take you less than a couple hours to find a new one.

So if your date is unreasonably late, then just pick up your cell and call another girl. Very simple. And head on out. No problem. Especially if you are just dating. And I would even tell the first girl what happened later on very honestly "hey, you left me hanging so I went out with another friend". You would think that would be the end of the first girl, but many times they got their act together and turned out fine in that regards if they were truly into you in the first place.

The thing you mentioned about the cell phones/street phones is so true. There is not a reason to not call someone. But at first I always thought it was because she was with another guy or something. It is not that way all the time. A lot of times it is simply laziness/ super laid back attitude. And the fact that in Colombia, as far I was saw outside of the Estrata 5-6, it was pretty normal for everyone to be late all the time for everything. So no phone call was required because the action of being late was not even abnormal in the first place.  In Barranquilla I even experienced that with professional people such as real estate agents.

[Colgando]

When the President of a country and his regime use the State Treasury as their personal piggy bank, jail or kill the opposition, with no one to check them or bring them to justice, when a person has to be of a particular tribe, particular religion or from a particular family to get a job or receive money from the treasury, a person is approaching the epitome of corruption. Last time I checked, US politicians have been crooks for a while, ever since DC turned into the Money Belt, after all, money spawns many evils however, I am not aware of any other country that brings justice to corrupt people as the US does and there is corruption in all corners of the world. El Flaco cites a list of people and further noted they were brought up on charges and removed from their posts. Many federal elected officials have had justice brought to them as well. If this justice was not served as best as it could be all things considered, the US would have a different character to it. In other countries, corrupt officials keep on keeping on. I find it interesting that people view it as getting worse in the US, more of the same to me, maybe more people are getting caught nowadays.

[V_Man]

"The trouble with being punctual is that nobody's there to appreciate it."
  - Franklin P Jones.

[OrlandoGringo]

I do get a little peeved about the finger pointing about corruption in the "third world" (I also bitch about the term - third world).  The politicians in the U.S. are the epitome of corruption.

The gringo politician gangsters might be more slick than those in Latin America.  One Latino who wasn't so slick or quick-on-the-draw was Manuel Noriega.  Remember him?  Remember his interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes?  Wallace asked Noriega what was his salary.  Of course, everyone knew that Noriega was a complete crook who was looting everything that wasn't nailed down.  Noriega stammered to try and come up with an answer and Wallace actually had to follow up with (I believe) "Is that a difficult question"?  In hindsight maybe Noriega shouldn't have done the interview especially with, of all people, Mike Wallace.  lol!    

[OrlandoGringo]

My ex was notoriously late for freaking everything.  It used to drive me nuts as I was religiously punctual.  Yea, I'm anal like that.  I guess I can be because I live outside of Orlando.  That's just the way I am.  If I tell someone I'll be there at a certain time I'm there as I believe it to be inconsiderate to keep my friend, acquaintance, etc. waiting on me.  If I'm going to be more than 5 minutes late I call.  That is rare. 
Anyway, my ex was always late.  But I can tell you this.  She wasn't late for the airport because she knew the damn plane would take off without her.  I think our Colombian friends tend to be selectively tardy.   
 

[OrlandoGringo]

By the way, Researcher, great story man!  Thanks for sharing! 

[michaelb]

The gringo politician gangsters might be more slick than those in Latin America.  One Latino who wasn't so slick or quick-on-the-draw was Manuel Noriega.  Remember him?  Remember his interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes?  Wallace asked Noriega what was his salary.  Of course, everyone knew that Noriega was a complete crook who was looting everything that wasn't nailed down.  Noriega stammered to try and come up with an answer and Wallace actually had to follow up with (I believe) "Is that a difficult question"?  In hindsight maybe Noriega shouldn't have done the interview especially with, of all people, Mike Wallace.  lol!   

A long standing rule of Latin American politics (which unfortunately has been adapted by US politicians) is: Think of it as an investment. Never spend more attaining the office than you can steal while holding the office.

Oh that reminds me, gotta vote today for which miscreant is going to be the next mayor of Dallas. I hope my ballot has a box to check "none of the above".

[Dan Las Vegas]

As I have said in previous posts, perhaps I have been lucky, my former novia was almost always punctual and made an effort to make sure she was on time. With my novia  who lives in Bogota, she is almost always on time and on the very rare occasion she is late, she calls me to let me know that she will be five or ten minutes late.  While this may indeed be rare in Colombia, it is very much appreciated by me.  I have to agree with what Dennis Levy has said on this topic.
Dan LV

[Researcher]

      Hey DLVegas, my wife is the same way and she is from Bogota.



         Researcher

[euforia51]

A man may be left standing in a mall wating for a call that she will never make...and she wont answer hiis calls BUT the situation has gone away and she doesn t have to confront it or admit responsbility for anything she did or didnt do.

People try to push each around in this country....people cut into long lines in fornt of bank teller cages, people interrupt a transaction at a cash register (thats supposedly permissable, if its just a question) people interrupt each other constantly, many women have deficient listening skills and attention spans.
 
One thing that irks me is when I give a woman the right of way on a sidewalk and sidewalk is not accurate, and many public sidewalks in Colombian towns and cities are broken, cracked, uneven heigjhts,more diirt then concrete  and crumbling,,,and a woman or two women will walk by without even saying gracias.....An older woman, 50 years or older will usually smile and say gracias.....but younger women....have no manners. Same goes for holding a door.....and I ll say to their receding backs.....de nada señoras, señoritas.....Almost never has a woman turned around and said...perdoname, señor...gracias
 
And the rationale for this is that a Colombian woman does not talk to men in the street....And of  course from my point of view, I m not trying to pick up a woman in the street, I m displaying courtesy and being a gentleman, and that merits a simple gracias.
 
But if you ask a availalbe straight Colombian woman what is her definition of gentlemanly behavior...her response is more along the lines of what a man will do for her.....whether or not he is detaillsita...concerned with details....little gifts or flowers, and that he won t push her for sex.
 
But they dont see that a stranger can demonstrate gentlemanly behavior or they should treat man with courtesy UNTIL he shows that he isn t a gentleman.
 
I used to give women the benefit of the doubt if they no showed me.....I dont anymore.

As I read this, I couldn't help but picture this very behavior going on here in the States as well. There's a definitely lack of manners and common courtesy that is not isolated to only Colombia. Sorry buddy, but you're not alone. In fact, I have adopted the last sentence in this post as well and often apply it to both genders.

For example, I no longer hold the door for people when entering a building and when in traffic I very rarely let people go ahead when trying to merge onto a crowded street, among other things. Why? Because it seems there's no gesture to say a simple thank you anymore. Furthermore, I get the sense from many that one is even expected to hold doors and let people merge into traffic as if it's a god given right; and then get P.O.ed when you don't do these things. On the flip side, I don't get uptight if I get snubbed either. Actually, I've come to expect it.

With regards to Colombia, during my two brief visits to Medellin, it seems I tend to forgive and tolerate much more than I ever would here. For some reason, which I do think about alot, I tend overlook the very same shortcomings of the people there that I would condemn people for living here. My rationale being if they live in the US, they should know better. Of course, it helps to have a novia who has been nothing short of amazing thus far. So I haven't had to deal with issues of punctuality and other flakey things that I have found more than my fair share of with women here in the US.